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Ginger_Ark · 04-20-2008, 02:52 PM

As many of you here, I have suffered from chronic BV for years, four years actually. It's amazing to me how I can go to a doctor, who will tell me first that it’s just a “nuisance” problem, and when I go back he’ll tell me he's never had anyone who didn't respond to this ____ treatment. Yet if you do a search for chronic BV on line you come up with thousands of hits like this forum of women saying the same thing & having had doctors who said this same thing. How can both be true? If men had pain, itch, and a smelly discharge from their penis for years, it would be a national health emergency. I’ll try to stay off my soapbox though.

What I want! I don't just want to be symptom free. I want to be able to live like a normal woman, who is in love with her husband, & who would like to express that love sexually! For the last four years the cycle has pretty much been this: 1. Can't have sex with my husband because of my symptoms or paranoia about smell or symptoms returning. 2. Can't have sex with my husband because I have a vagina full of goop. This is not living.

Here are my symptoms:

pain & itching, especially around the vulva & urethra
discharge, sometimes foul but not always
increased pain & itching after orgasm - whether or not from intercourse
sharp shooting pains in my vagina, like being stuck with needles, especially when the infection has gotten really bad. (I’ve read that some other women have this, & people act like they’ve never heard of it. It does exist in some women, just like some women can have BV & be asymptomatic.)
I frequently just feel sick – like I am running a fever, though I’m not. I feel like I have a cold/flu virus, but without the respiratory symptoms. No doctor has been able to find a cause using blood tests or throat swabs. I think it’s the BV.

First of all, if you are here, you already know to "wipe front to back" & "keep yourself clean." If I hear one more person tell me that, I'm going to choke him/her.

Secondly, I, just like the rest of you, have been through the regular & some not so regular attempts at a cure:

Metrogel (no relief at all & gave me big time cheesy discharge, as the gel adheres to the epithelial cells & causes them to coagulate)
Flagyl (minimal results), including treating my husband
Cleocin (gave me the best results at the time, but of course it came back)
Long term oral Levaquin. Helped while I was on it.
A Cleocin/hydrocortizone compound for 28 days. Relief for 2 months after I finished.

I have also used:

betadine douches (mixed 1/2 & 1/2). It gave me the longest lasting relief, but I started worrying about douching so much, & after a while its seemed to start making my insides tender
rePHresh gave me some relief, but it didn't help once symptoms were very pronounced. It also started being much less effective over time. It also gives me the discharge from the gel adhering to the epithelial cells.

I have done much MUCH research trying to solve my problem, & I want to put it all in one place so that it might help someone else.

Normal pH is <4.6. You can buy a vaginal screening kit from Vagisil now to test. Also, this site has them for sale, plus an additional screening tool, & it's cheaper than what Vagisil sells. http://www.vaginosis.com/
When the pH is normal, there is an abundance of the Lactobacillus bacteria. When it gets higher (or more alkyline) the Gardnella bacteria (and the yeast) can proliferate.
Now, it's the chicken or the egg. Does the pH getting imbalanced cause the bacteria upset, or visa versa? I don’t know. Will introducing Lactobacillus solve the problem, or will high pH kill them off? Or will changing the pH cause the Lactobacillus to thrive? I think this is a key question.
The prescriptions used to kill Gardnella also kill Lactobacillus. So it creates a cycle.
Lactobacillus is an aerobic bacteria (needs oxygen). Gardnella is anaerobic (no oxygen). That’s one reason that wearing cotton underwear & keeping yourself aerated is important.
The Lactobacillus put out hydrogen peroxide.

Here are some suggestions that I have gathered, & my response to them based on what I’ve figured out:

Soaps & laundry detergent with no perfumes or dyes. I’ve just recently switched to this kind of laundry detergent, so I don’t know, but it makes sense.
Tea tree suppositories/oil – this kills bacteria, so it seems that it would cause the same problem as the antibiotics
Garlic pill/clove used vaginally -- see above. Additionally, it seems that the pills taken orally would have the same effect.
Colloidal silver – see above.
Peroxide douche or wash – since it mimics the Lactobacillus, this would seem to help the situation. Does the HO keep Gardnella at bay? I don’t know. I’d like to find that out.

Probiotics – this deserves bullet points all on its own.

There are probiotics that occur naturally in the vaginal & urinary tract. Originally it was identified as Lactobacillus fermentum. Eventually, this was broken down as two different strains: Lactobacillus Rhamnosus and Lactobacillus Reuteri.
Lactobacillus Acidophilus appears to have positive results when used topically & inter-vaginally. This probiotic occurs in certain yogurts. Very limited to no success has been found when it is taken orally.
Lactobacillus Rhamnosus and Lactobacillus Reuteri are the only probiotics that have shown the ability to cross the intestinal tract to the vaginal/urinary tract. There is some evidence that these probiotics are helpful when used orally.
Dannon Activia drink has verified amounts of Lactobacillus Acidophilus. There is an unflavored version that could be used as a douche.
The only probiotics that contain the Lactobacillus Rhamnosus and Lactobacillus Reuteri strains are:
- Nature’s Way Primodophilus Reuteri
- Jarrow’s Femdophilus
- And now, and I find this the most exciting because it is mainstream, RepHresh Pro-B. See the article just published 4/15 http://www.financialpost.com/markets/news_releases/story.html?id=447433.

I was already scheduled for a follow-up appointment with my gyn tomorrow. I did the screening kit yesterday, & I was at 5.5, having significant but not severe symptoms. Yesterday afternoon, I began taking the Nature’s Way Primodophilus Reuteri. I took three yesterday & will take three today. I also drank about a gallon (actually a full quart) of Kefir organic active culture yogurt drink. I also ate some Dannon activia yogurt. I do not want to use anything vaginally until after I see my doctor tomorrow. I will be curious what my pH is when I go.

Articles I have used to gather my information. I leaned toward the scientific studies because I plan to take these to my doctor tomorrow. Some of them were only available in abstracts, but I plan to give them to my gyn because I’m sure she can access the full version of the study/article.

http://www.gutflora/hs-news.php?id=117
http://www.florajen.com/vaginal.html
http://clinicaltrials/ct2/show/NCT00635622?recr=open&cond="Vaginal+Diseases"&rank =6
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1471-0528.2007.01412.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=bjo
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W9T-4KPX92G-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view =c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_user id=10&md5=d43157c17dd8c12e8fe9227f992f3590

This guy has a good chart for suggested treatments. http://www.vaginosis.com/ Also, if anyone having this problem is living in the Maryland area, it sounds like this would be the guy to see.

My plan when I visit my doctor tomorrow:

Find out how much she knows about probiotics & how open she is to the ideas presented &/or learning more about them. That answer will determine much.
Ask her if there is a more regulated form of Lactobacilli Reuteri & Rhamnosus, as well as Lactobacillus Acidophilus that she has access to as a doctor. I have read some things that indicate that homeopathic doctors can get stronger/more reliable homeopathic drugs than what we can get OTC at the health store.
I am supposed to be going to China/Japan for the month of June. I do not want this to ruin my trip. I need to discuss with her what I can take with me in case of an unbearable outbreak.

As of right now, this is my plan:

Take three of the Primodophilus Reuteri pills orally a day.
Use one pill with yogurt vaginally every other day.
Do a hydrogen peroxide douche or wash on days in between.
Take zinc to boost my immune system & set up healthy environment for friendly bacteria.
Wash all of my underwear in hot hot water with perfume/dye free detergent. Same with sheets and towels.
Switch from Ivory soap to Nutragena fragrance free soap.
Use condoms on those rare occasions I actually feel well enough to have intercourse.

I realize this is long. I tried to put it in as organized a fashion as possible. I will document my progress. I hope someone finds this helpful.

One more thing. I've found this Naure's Way Primodophilus Reuteri Powder Primadophilus Reuteri Powder Nature's Way - 5 oz. (141.75g). I'm wondering if this could be mixed up as a douche & used vaginally. It would seem like this would work to directly introduce Lactobacillus Reuteri to the vaginal tract.

It's in this very technical article http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...1-2334-4-5.pdf. I will try to sum up.

Atopobium vaginae (Atv) is a particular anaerobic bacteria that has only recently been identified in patients with BV.
Atv can not be identified using the regular gram stain, as it looks just like Lactobacillus (the good ones) in a gram stain. It had to be identified using a much more complicated test.
Atv is resistant to both oral & vaginal metronidazole. (Anyone else here saying "aha!"?)
Atv does respond to clindamycin (i.e. Cleocin & Clindesse)

Unfortunately, Clindamycin kills good Lactobacillus bacteria as well. I hypothesize that most of us that have chronic BV have this Atv strain. Metro does nothing for us. Clindamycin helps, but then it comes back because it's also killing the Lactobacillus. This Atv does respond to several other antibiotics listed in the article. If one of those could target the Atv without killing the aerobic bacteria, we might have a real cure.

God, I hope my doctor listens to all this tomorrow.

04-20-2008, 02:52 PM	#106
Ginger_Ark Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 25	As many of you here, I have suffered from chronic BV for years, four years actually. It's amazing to me how I can go to a doctor, who will tell me first that it’s just a “nuisance” problem, and when I go back he’ll tell me he's never had anyone who didn't respond to this ____ treatment. Yet if you do a search for chronic BV on line you come up with thousands of hits like this forum of women saying the same thing & having had doctors who said this same thing. How can both be true? If men had pain, itch, and a smelly discharge from their penis for years, it would be a national health emergency. I’ll try to stay off my soapbox though. What I want! I don't just want to be symptom free. I want to be able to live like a normal woman, who is in love with her husband, & who would like to express that love sexually! For the last four years the cycle has pretty much been this: 1. Can't have sex with my husband because of my symptoms or paranoia about smell or symptoms returning. 2. Can't have sex with my husband because I have a vagina full of goop. This is not living. Here are my symptoms: pain & itching, especially around the vulva & urethra discharge, sometimes foul but not always increased pain & itching after orgasm - whether or not from intercourse sharp shooting pains in my vagina, like being stuck with needles, especially when the infection has gotten really bad. (I’ve read that some other women have this, & people act like they’ve never heard of it. It does exist in some women, just like some women can have BV & be asymptomatic.) I frequently just feel sick – like I am running a fever, though I’m not. I feel like I have a cold/flu virus, but without the respiratory symptoms. No doctor has been able to find a cause using blood tests or throat swabs. I think it’s the BV. First of all, if you are here, you already know to "wipe front to back" & "keep yourself clean." If I hear one more person tell me that, I'm going to choke him/her. Secondly, I, just like the rest of you, have been through the regular & some not so regular attempts at a cure: Metrogel (no relief at all & gave me big time cheesy discharge, as the gel adheres to the epithelial cells & causes them to coagulate) Flagyl (minimal results), including treating my husband Cleocin (gave me the best results at the time, but of course it came back) Long term oral Levaquin. Helped while I was on it. A Cleocin/hydrocortizone compound for 28 days. Relief for 2 months after I finished. I have also used: betadine douches (mixed 1/2 & 1/2). It gave me the longest lasting relief, but I started worrying about douching so much, & after a while its seemed to start making my insides tender rePHresh gave me some relief, but it didn't help once symptoms were very pronounced. It also started being much less effective over time. It also gives me the discharge from the gel adhering to the epithelial cells. I have done much MUCH research trying to solve my problem, & I want to put it all in one place so that it might help someone else. Normal pH is <4.6. You can buy a vaginal screening kit from Vagisil now to test. Also, this site has them for sale, plus an additional screening tool, & it's cheaper than what Vagisil sells. http://www.vaginosis.com/ When the pH is normal, there is an abundance of the Lactobacillus bacteria. When it gets higher (or more alkyline) the Gardnella bacteria (and the yeast) can proliferate. Now, it's the chicken or the egg. Does the pH getting imbalanced cause the bacteria upset, or visa versa? I don’t know. Will introducing Lactobacillus solve the problem, or will high pH kill them off? Or will changing the pH cause the Lactobacillus to thrive? I think this is a key question. The prescriptions used to kill Gardnella also kill Lactobacillus. So it creates a cycle. Lactobacillus is an aerobic bacteria (needs oxygen). Gardnella is anaerobic (no oxygen). That’s one reason that wearing cotton underwear & keeping yourself aerated is important. The Lactobacillus put out hydrogen peroxide. Here are some suggestions that I have gathered, & my response to them based on what I’ve figured out: Soaps & laundry detergent with no perfumes or dyes. I’ve just recently switched to this kind of laundry detergent, so I don’t know, but it makes sense. Tea tree suppositories/oil – this kills bacteria, so it seems that it would cause the same problem as the antibiotics Garlic pill/clove used vaginally -- see above. Additionally, it seems that the pills taken orally would have the same effect. Colloidal silver – see above. Peroxide douche or wash – since it mimics the Lactobacillus, this would seem to help the situation. Does the HO keep Gardnella at bay? I don’t know. I’d like to find that out. Probiotics – this deserves bullet points all on its own. There are probiotics that occur naturally in the vaginal & urinary tract. Originally it was identified as Lactobacillus fermentum. Eventually, this was broken down as two different strains: Lactobacillus Rhamnosus and Lactobacillus Reuteri. Lactobacillus Acidophilus appears to have positive results when used topically & inter-vaginally. This probiotic occurs in certain yogurts. Very limited to no success has been found when it is taken orally. Lactobacillus Rhamnosus and Lactobacillus Reuteri are the only probiotics that have shown the ability to cross the intestinal tract to the vaginal/urinary tract. There is some evidence that these probiotics are helpful when used orally. Dannon Activia drink has verified amounts of Lactobacillus Acidophilus. There is an unflavored version that could be used as a douche. The only probiotics that contain the Lactobacillus Rhamnosus and Lactobacillus Reuteri strains are: Nature’s Way Primodophilus Reuteri Jarrow’s Femdophilus And now, and I find this the most exciting because it is mainstream, RepHresh Pro-B. See the article just published 4/15 http://www.financialpost.com/markets/news_releases/story.html?id=447433. I was already scheduled for a follow-up appointment with my gyn tomorrow. I did the screening kit yesterday, & I was at 5.5, having significant but not severe symptoms. Yesterday afternoon, I began taking the Nature’s Way Primodophilus Reuteri. I took three yesterday & will take three today. I also drank about a gallon (actually a full quart) of Kefir organic active culture yogurt drink. I also ate some Dannon activia yogurt. I do not want to use anything vaginally until after I see my doctor tomorrow. I will be curious what my pH is when I go. Articles I have used to gather my information. I leaned toward the scientific studies because I plan to take these to my doctor tomorrow. Some of them were only available in abstracts, but I plan to give them to my gyn because I’m sure she can access the full version of the study/article. http://www.gutflora/hs-news.php?id=117 http://www.florajen.com/vaginal.html http://clinicaltrials/ct2/show/NCT00635622?recr=open&cond="Vaginal+Diseases"&rank =6 http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1471-0528.2007.01412.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=bjo http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W9T-4KPX92G-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view =c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_user id=10&md5=d43157c17dd8c12e8fe9227f992f3590 This guy has a good chart for suggested treatments. http://www.vaginosis.com/ Also, if anyone having this problem is living in the Maryland area, it sounds like this would be the guy to see. My plan when I visit my doctor tomorrow: Find out how much she knows about probiotics & how open she is to the ideas presented &/or learning more about them. That answer will determine much. Ask her if there is a more regulated form of Lactobacilli Reuteri & Rhamnosus, as well as Lactobacillus Acidophilus that she has access to as a doctor. I have read some things that indicate that homeopathic doctors can get stronger/more reliable homeopathic drugs than what we can get OTC at the health store. I am supposed to be going to China/Japan for the month of June. I do not want this to ruin my trip. I need to discuss with her what I can take with me in case of an unbearable outbreak. As of right now, this is my plan: Take three of the Primodophilus Reuteri pills orally a day. Use one pill with yogurt vaginally every other day. Do a hydrogen peroxide douche or wash on days in between. Take zinc to boost my immune system & set up healthy environment for friendly bacteria. Wash all of my underwear in hot hot water with perfume/dye free detergent. Same with sheets and towels. Switch from Ivory soap to Nutragena fragrance free soap. Use condoms on those rare occasions I actually feel well enough to have intercourse. I realize this is long. I tried to put it in as organized a fashion as possible. I will document my progress. I hope someone finds this helpful. One more thing. I've found this Naure's Way Primodophilus Reuteri Powder Primadophilus Reuteri Powder Nature's Way - 5 oz. (141.75g). I'm wondering if this could be mixed up as a douche & used vaginally. It would seem like this would work to directly introduce Lactobacillus Reuteri to the vaginal tract. It's in this very technical article http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...1-2334-4-5.pdf. I will try to sum up. Atopobium vaginae (Atv) is a particular anaerobic bacteria that has only recently been identified in patients with BV. Atv can not be identified using the regular gram stain, as it looks just like Lactobacillus (the good ones) in a gram stain. It had to be identified using a much more complicated test. Atv is resistant to both oral & vaginal metronidazole. (Anyone else here saying "aha!"?) Atv does respond to clindamycin (i.e. Cleocin & Clindesse) Unfortunately, Clindamycin kills good Lactobacillus bacteria as well. I hypothesize that most of us that have chronic BV have this Atv strain. Metro does nothing for us. Clindamycin helps, but then it comes back because it's also killing the Lactobacillus. This Atv does respond to several other antibiotics listed in the article. If one of those could target the Atv without killing the aerobic bacteria, we might have a real cure. God, I hope my doctor listens to all this tomorrow. Last edited by Little; 04-20-2008 at 07:27 PM.