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Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by ohthereyouare
bingo:d
This doesn't make sense. If "the men behind the entire debate" are against aborting a child, wouldn't that be acting in the interest of the child?
And if you want to reserve the right to kill a child, wouldn't that be hurting them?
bingo:d
You haven't been compared in any way, shape or form to my ex. I see this as a discourse, an exploration of a social issue. I could play devil's advocate and argue any side of the issue, there are several approaches. My hope is to encourage thought, examination and a wider veiw. Looking at a piece of a very complex structure in isolation is very limiting. We have to see not just the thread but look at the entire web. Nothing happens in isolation. There isn't space or time here to delve in too deeply but we can at least recognize that this is part of a much larger picture.
Women have been accepting resposiblity for pregnancy all along - they have no choice. Yes, there are women who use it to entrap men but in reality they trap themselves. The problem is a social system and structure that has created generations of dependant women and Still largely supports that situation. Like it or not the numbers speak; women earn less for the same work, still hit the glass ceiling, are more likely to live in poverty, more likely not to have any retirement savings, to have limited options for child care, for health care, the list goes on and on and isn't just about women but about the children they are raising.
Taking sexual responsibilty requires certain understanding, education and resources. All factors that some very vocal, organized groups work tirelessly at limiting or prohibiting. So called birth control isn't any more effective now than it was in the 60s and seems to have more side effects. Just read through some of the I am pregnant? What about this or that related to my body or bc or sex on some of the threads here and you will start to see how ineffective the so called sex ed is. Funding for programs has been cut or restricted all over the place. Where is the knowledge and understanding to support responsible action supposed to come from? This isn't a woman's problem or a man's problem - it's humanity's problem.
The morality issue is a shoot. Who defines morality? Is it moral to have a child you can't care for adequately? You can't feed or clothe? Is is moral to bring a child into an abusive relationship? Is it moral to love, care for and raise a child and then send them out into the streets or into battle to get killed? Is moral to allow people to reproduce just because they can? Is it moral for various groups to decide that their particular religious beliefs should be the standard for everyone else's behavior and that they should engage in what others see as atrocities and violence to try to make that happen? (we are engaged in war with people who think so) Who decides what is moral?
Self responsibilty is another issue. I see abdication of responsibility every where. How often have you encountered a situation, for example, of trying to get shoddy workmanship corrected? No one is responsible, they shuttle you around, "well we'll replace the part but you'll have to pay the labor" like you are somehow at fault because the part they installed was bad. This is emdemic in society and it needs to be corrected. I see the first step in that as getting away from blame being the solution. My question is always, how are you going to fix it now and then what will you do to make sure it doesn't happen again? When you have kids you really start see the rational for this. When you hear screaming and find two crying, upset kids and broken glass and blood all over, who's responsible and should they be punished is back burner to; who's hurt, do we need the parameds, or a washcloth and a bandaid?
Right now everybody is hurt; women, men and children. The fact that there is so much debate and such high emotion connected to this, tells it's own story. We need a multi pronged approach to resolve it. To go back the the analogy of kids; you clean up the wound, treat it, clean up the mess, then start asking, what happened? A story emerges which often has more to do with each trying to avoid being wrong than with what really happened, at some point it has to come down to, it sounds like both should have found better ways to act -what can you do differently? The other side is how can we make sure no one gets hurt again? (maybe certain items need to be moved, maybe we need plexiglass in the door panels so on one puts their arm through it again).
Solutions to complex issues need both immediate short term fixes and more in depth examination and change. Ideally abortion should become an infrequent medical procedure to save a woman's life or health, not a substitute for conception control. I think we would agree on this?
But if we start there, we leave an enormous gap that we aren't yet prepared to fill. Just saying women get pregnant, they have to take responsibility won't do it. The so called moral majority says the way to do that is to absolutely stop all sex outside of marriage and some say to even stop sex within marriage unless you want a child. Personally I was sexually active at 14, you say you started pretty early too - ready to give it up, to see everyone else give it up? I'm not.
So far the focus in conception control has been on controlling women's fertillity. Ok, but it can be tough, just look at all the side effects, it depends on the woman but they can be significant, even deadly. Not much has really been explored with controlling men's fertility, I suspect it will hold some similar challenges. But we don't really know. This gets into a whole range of attitude, the US has the highest hystrectomy rates in the world, "you're done having babies, let's just yank it out."(this is very market driven - its a billion dollar industry) Having seen a man through testicular cancer, I can say the attitude is different. They really get skittish, orcectomy isn't happening unless it's really necessary.
We need some short term fixes and then we need a realistic long term solution. I think it lies in a combination of accurate information and education that isn't religious agenda driven, wide, affordable access to a variety of forms of conception control and a better range of choices in conception control for both genders. But that will have to be coupled with greater empowerment for women.
We can only learn to love by loving. - Iris Mudoch, British writer
well it seems that the woman has rights,the man has rights... but the baby has no rights and it affects the baby most of all.
That's very true. Of course that makes an argument for human life beginning at conception too. Although I'm not a proponent of abortion except in cases where the mother's life is threatened but do believe all life, no matter how small (or species) has the same inherent value and no one has the authority to take that away and those that do will have to deal with the effects of that decision.
Of course FWIW I don't believe in the death penalty either though a note to OTYA I'm not equating the two!
Do not dwell in the past,
do not dream of the future,
concentrate the mind on the present moment.
-Lord Buddha
If that is what you understood from what I wrote then you need to reread.
We can only learn to love by loving. - Iris Mudoch, British writer
Miya! Something we dont agree on...Wow...Of course FWIW I don't believe in the death penalty either though a note to OTYA I'm not equating the two!
The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on. - Robert Bloch
AwwI guess there had to be something.
Do not dwell in the past,
do not dream of the future,
concentrate the mind on the present moment.
-Lord Buddha
Good.
But have they really? Look at all the posts in this thread that indicate that since the man ejaculated in the woman, it is partly his fault as well.
Women have no one to blame for these situations but themselves. They receive lower salaries because they don't demand more. They hit the glass ceiling because people rise to the level of their incompetency. You ever wonder why are weddings so expensive? It's not because women manage money better than men.
Excuses. It's not rocket science to know that if you ejaculate into a woman's vagina that there is a chance you can get pregnant. The problem isn't lack of education. The problem is lack of responsibility. The lack of education argument may hold a candle in less developed nations, but not here in the U.S.
Across all beliefs and religions and cultures, name one that agrees with murder.
Encouraging irresponsible behavior, by keeping abortion legal isn't the solution. The solution would be making a stand and saying this can't happen.
No one is going to learn responsiblity by receiving a get out of jail free card. Refer again to the percentage of repeat abortions. I'm not sure why people can't understand that.
I agree. But the only way to make it an infrequent medical procedure is by outlawing it.
We need to change the attitude. Because women don't want to take repsonsibility for it. (and i'm not talking about you fine ladies) They blame it on countless excuses....oh my BC didn't work, oh the condom broke, oh, well he said he didn't do it in me, I was on my period.It's everyone else's fault but their own.
And for some reason after 14 years, countless partners and orgasms, I've never even had a scare. I wonder if that has to do with my sense of responsibility.
Exactly. And so what does that say? That says that men are more particular and vocal about the situation than women are. If women don't want the procedure...then don't get it. Are you saying that they are FORCED into this?
Exactly. And greater empowerment for women will only come when they demand it. People don't give up power, it is taken from them. Women are just as able as men. But if they keep using this victim mentality as a cop out, things will not change.
Outlawing abortion is like outlawing anything ... you make a black market for something people have always used since the beginning of time. And instead of a drug, we're talking a complex medical procedure that, in the wrong hands, becomes immensely dangerous. A human being in a dire situation becomes desperate and will do anything. Is the life of a fetus worth more than a human being, which to have conceived must have been on this earth for at least a decade, perhaps many, is an intrinsically beautiful creature, as well as intrinsically flawed? Only a mentally ill person could skip away whistling from an abortion, if anyone is worried about women getting abortions walking away scot-free. Any mentally stable individual would be affected by it.
In Western society, the responsibility for conception control is on the woman. Why? Because they have BCPs, full of fake hormones that cause cancer, expensive (some are $70 a month and you HAVE to have the exact right one for you or else all breaks loose; it's an rx, after all,) difficult to remember to take every day (goes back to that "we're intrinsically flawed" idea,) but if you take the alternative shot, patch, etc, it drains your bone density, something women already have problems with. The US military has basically called it an epidemic, young women going into Basic/Boot and getting stress fractures because of their low bone density, and the rx we're RESPONSIBLE for taking makes it worse?
In the words of my gyno, "you can put anything in a woman's body and nobody asks anything. When you want to give a man a prescription, you can forget about it. They won't let you do it." Would a doctor say that if it wasn't true? Men don't have STD vaccinations, women do. Men don't have sperm control pills, women have egg control pills. Men have condoms that break. Is that responsible, safe sex? Is it the woman's fault? Healthcare has even created condoms for women to wear, diaphragms ... anything to keep the man from having to be responsible for his own reproduction. Have you seen the failure rates on those items? Way higher than a male condom.
Our society takes a dump on women every day of our lives and gives men the chance to run away from responsibility, not only for sex and reproduction, but in just about every facet. Abortion/BC/Sex/Pregnancy is just the worst and most visible area. Those in charge pretend that they already have the solution, those amazing BCPs that seem designed to ruin our bodies forever for contraception. I've heard them called "poison" by NFP teachers. But we're responsible for taking them anyways.
made one wish for a permanent kiss that would echo through these bones like arsenic
Women are female (adj,) but not females (n.) We aren't dogs.
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