Katie0928

I know I'm a newbie and generally people don't like to reply so much to newbies but I need your help.

When I was 6 or 7 - I know some people have clear memories of their childhood but I really can't be sure of my age, it was either of the 2- my brother who was 11 or 12 at the time entered my bed in just his blue undies and and hugged me, touched me and possibly fondled me. We were sleeping in the same room at the time , but in seperate beds. From that time on apparently I asked him to kiss me before sleep - on the lips.
I guess I was confused by what was right or wrong between brother and sister. I mean, I was 6! He was 11 (or 12) He should've known better, right?

When I was 21 and living in another country I wrote him a letter and told him I remembered what he did and that it was affecting my marriage (flashbacks when we would have sex) and causing me continuing stress. All I wanted was an acceptance that it happened and an apology. But I got a 10 page aggressive letter with an 'apology' squeezed in their somewhere. I mean it was such a 'woe is me' letter talking about how he helped me with my homework and how he was bitten by a dog as a postman. I mean, what?
I basically cut off contact with him.

Now my Mum is sick and we're in contact again. he keeps on going on about how we should be a united family. When I mentioned that my husband doesn't want me to meet you, he went off about how unchristian he is and I had to reply that we were still upset about how the matter was handled 5 years ago , mentioning all the things that upset me about his letter. My husband wants to protect me from further stress / upset.

My brother is basically saying I'm making a big thing out of nothing. but when I reached puberty and realised that my memories and nightmares weren't just that and it wasn't appropriate between brother and sister it contributed to the stress I was going through at the time and well, I'm still overcoming anxiety. Surely I'm not over reacting?

All I need to know is - am I crazy? Am I right to feel as messed up and defiled as I do? Please, someone tell me his hateful, cold reaction was also inappropriate.

If anyone has any articles that defines molestation that might also help him to see what he did was wrong, despite his young age .

For my Mother's sake I want to put this behind me. But that fact he is aggressively bringing this up again is adding to the stress I already have.

Please someone help me.

kms

Even the smallest things that happen to us as children can seriously affect us deeply and long into our adult lives. I don't say that to downplay what happened with you, but to point out that what might not seem like a big deal to some may have really had an impact on someone else. So certainly you are justified in feeling wronged and defiled.

I'm not surprised by your brother's reaction. You have accused him of molestation and possible incest - even if it's at all true he would likely feel a lot of embarrassment and shame at having that thrown in his face. Plus, you mentioned that he was young as well. I'm not sure it's entirely fair to hold him accountable for something he did while still a child himself. He may have been curious. The idea may have gotten into his head somehow, from somewhere. That's not to say that he's innocent of whatever he did, but an 11-year-old doing what he did as opposed to an adult is completely different. Further, you aren't completely innocent - you made the decision to kiss him on the mouth more than once, did you not?

Honestly I think much more of the blame falls on your parents. It seems highly irresponsible to allow a boy and a girl to sleep in the same room over a certain age, no matter if they are siblings or not. Kids are curious and may not fully understand taboos or what society has told us is off-limits. Parents should be the ones instilling these moral values in us and preventing possible harm as much as possible. It's like leaving a bottle of vodka in the same room as a kid - he may drink it out of curiosity, not because he evilly wants to get drunk!

With that being said, if what happened has affected you so much that it is interfering in your marriage, then you really need to go to a counselor to get help with working through the feelings and thoughts that you have associated with this. Blaming your brother or trying to prove to him (or yourself) that he was wrong won't solve anything. He may have a lot of confused, negative feelings about that event also, and he may be responding out of fear, shame, embarrassment, etc. and may not be at a point to talk with you openly about it. It's better to work through all this with a trained professional, who could also definitely help you sort through your marriage issues (which could be related or could be stemming from other things as well).

Anyway, this is just my honest opinion. I don't think it's just a black and white issue of right and wrong. I think there are a lot of factors here that make it a bit more complex.

WildChild

This is a tough one. You don't really know the extent of what happened. Some families do kiss on the lips and it is normal to them. Questions that need to be answered might include if your brother is defensive because he feels wrongly accused or because he remembers things you don't? Are you in fact 'remembering' or have you built 'memories' on assumptions? The mind is a powerful thing but it actually can't distingush between reality and fantasy on it's own. What seems like memories can be created, you have to be very careful with this. You seem to hold some sort of guilt because of requesting a kiss?

It's hard to say what he knew at that age. You don't say how old you are, but I know when I was that age I was very innocent and we had very little exposure to anything sexual on tv or elsewhere at that time. This depends on your family, the part of the country, the time period, so many factors. You can't make assumptions on this.

Your chronology isn't clear. You've said your memory wasn't clear and things may or may not have happened, then you mention memories and nightmares at puberty. What were those? Puberty can be a challenging time and there are some interesting things that can go on in the mind.

I don't know what to suggest on this. A competent counselor could help you come to terms with this but an incompetent one (and there are many) could really make a mess of you. I've seen families torn apart by 'memories' of questionable validity, I seen people torn apart by a family's refusal to listen or accept abuse. The scandles of a couple decades ago, with manipulated and planted memory of childhood abuse make a skittish situation when things are this uncertain. I know first hand that a trauma situation such as sexual abuse can result in both vivid memories and total blank spots, so I'm not trying to discount what may have happened, just saying you need to be really careful. For myself I have a clear memory of being raped as a teen - up to a certain point - then I have a blank spot and the memory resumes, then another blank spot. I don't know what happened in the blanks. I may have been raped a second time in the second blank... or not. I will probably never know, it's unlikely that the one person who does know and I will ever have a conversation about it. That's ok, I don't need to know, it would help me to do so. I'm sharing this just so you understand that I do know what this is like. Someone who hasn't experienced it cannot understand.

You have a need to deal with this and get some closure. But you may never know what really happened. Can you accept that, forgive - if it is needed and move on?

WildChild

Opps. I meant to say it Wouldn't help me to know.

Katie0928

Thank you for replying. It's what I need now, someone seperated from the issue who'll give me honest answers.

[QUOTE][QUOTE]I was 6 years old 'kms'. It became a kind of 'game'. He was almost a teenager and yet didn't stop it. Please don't put any of the blame on me, I don't think I could handle that.
This much I agree with. My brother's room was being built at the time so I guess they felt they had no choice but still, it was a wrong move.

Actually just writing that letter 5 years ago and getting it out in the open was really helpful to me. He ended up running to Mummy and Daddy, which in the end was helpful as they now know why we're not close. The flashbacks have stopped and my husband is my greatest supporter as ever.
Anyway, thank you for your opinion. Even if it did seem a bit on my brother's side!!!

The kisses came after the bed incident. Once I hit puberty all that happened during that time disturbed me. You know growing up I always wondered, especially being so young, did these things *really* happen? Why do I have these memories. If one thing his letter did was clear that up as he did admit to the incident and that it wasn't appropriate but is now seemingly retracting that admission.

The only thing I'm not clear on is whether I was 6 or 7.

You know, I thought I had. Somewhere in that 10 page (no kidding) letter, between the woe is me stuff, there was an acceptance and apology, so I accepted it and moved on, but decided not to keep close. We live on opposite sides of the world anyway and we (hubby and I) were still not happy with his aggresive way of handling such a matter.

But as I said my Mum recently got sick. My husband was worried I would meet him when we both went back to our home country (we both live overseas). I told my brother nicely that if possible, while I don't have any problem in meeting, ,my husband would rather if we didn't. I got an aggressive reply about my husband and, well my reply explained he was just worried about my health, especially after the letter incident. and it all went from there. I'm not about to go to court about it, far from it, I just want it to go away, but to work as a united family I needed to air a few things.

So, all I need to know is. Is what he did wrong? Can anyone say no???? Is inappropriate touching called molestation? Is that what he did?

Hopeless Dork

I don't think anyones trying to blame you for kisses, you should feel guilty for none of it, you were a child, he was 11? Old enough to probably know it was not right to be touching you, but he too was not at a full age of understanding either likely as 11 has not even hit puberty yet either in most cases?

Either way if you feel violated its warrented. If you considered it molestation than that is what it is, would he be held accountable for kisses and touches as an 11 year old? A judge would have probably ordered him to some much needed counseling and got you some as well and you would have a much easier time going through puberty and into your marriage.

Alas, you can't go back and change a thing, you can only move forward, but again that is only if you choose to. You can let the past effect your every day and current relationships but I'm sure you don't want to. And holding on to it, is just keeping it there , hurting and upsetting you.

You have to learn to forgive him, not for him but for you. He didn't handle it well, most people don't when being confronted, and in this case he probably felt guilty for your continued hurt over the incident as well as regrettful and instead of just having that heart to heart with you, got defensive and angry and tried to justify how awful his own life is.

But that is nothing to you, you have your husband and your own family now to think of and really doesn't sound like you are too needy of your brother in your life. Its sad that such an incident can cause so much pain and tear your family up this far down the road but it is what it is.

If you feel you can't emotionally handle seeing him, by all means don't. You don't owe anyone anything and you shouldn't make yourself crazy just to keep the peace. That being said, if the two of you could make ammends that don't make you regress into nightmares and panicky feelings, of course that would be the best thing that could happen for all of you.

You can plan your visits to your mother so that you two are visiting at different times but its likely that you guys will run into each other at some point and you just need to be firm with how you would like that handled. You decide if you want to speak to him or not and you can always change your mind.

Counseling may not be a bad idea if this is still having an effect on your life outside of just worrying about this run-in with him around your mom. People handle childhood traumas (whether they are major or minor in everyone elses eyes matters not, if it matters to you it matters) differently. Some go through severely abusive situations and it has no affect on them later, some people have moderate to mild situations that cripple them for life.

Only you can decide how much you want to let this incident define your future or play apart in it. Sometimes forgiving in your heart , and just consciously deciding that you are going to move forward will help you along but if not, its time for a professional.

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Defintion of Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Katie0928

Thank you HP. Your post was lovely and very comforting.
I had put it behind me but as my husband didn't want us back with Mum at the same time I had to tell him. His rude reply to my husband kind of brought up all those bitter feeling again , I think.
I had been e-mailing him and had even been meaning to ring him to see how he was handling the news and to thank him 'in person' for all he was doing for Mum. I think that had shown I had moved on. but then his reply came.... and I gave up on the idea of that phone call. He is obviously still bitter himself and he's always had self esteem problems so maybe your theory that his aggression stems from guilt may be right.
Maybe I should write again and tell him to forget it and just move on. We have much bigger worries at the moment but his e-mail really riled me. It was like he was saying I was a liar and that I was making too much out of nothing.
I joined here as I needed to hear I wasn't crazy. Thank you HP for your lovely post.
If anyone else has any thoughts, please feel free to chime in.

Katie.

Debra

One way to help clear up whether the memories are real or not is to remember your position in the memory itself. A lot of times people will swear that they remember something when they were a baby. The way some psychologists determined whether they were real or not was to ask what the perspective was during the memory? Are you remembering while looking down at yourself? Were you at eye level but seeing yourself? Or were you looking through your own eyes at what was happening?

If the answer was anything but looking through your own eyes then the answer could very well be that the memories weren't real. But, if you answered the question with 'through my eyes' then the memories could very well be real.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

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Debra

WildChild

Is it possible that your brother may have repressed what happened? If that were the case then it's possible his memory isn't clear and when this is brought up he may fell guilty, angry with himself and a host of other emotions without being entirely clear why.

Yes, he was older than you and putting the two of you in the same room was a poor choice but unless he was sexually precocious I doubt he would have had a clear understanding of why this behavior was wrong. That doesn't by any means excuse it. KMS has made a good point that what one person finds a non-event, another can be deeply impacted by. It sounds like he is now entrenched in defensiveness so you are unlikely to make much progress getting the response you would like from him.

Only you can make the determination of what you need to move on. I don't want to discount your feelings or memories but if you have children of your own I'm sure you have seen examples of how they can, from a child's perspective, get a completely different picture of an event than an adult has. I have a freind who became eaten with guilt over how badly she felt she had treated a gf from elementry school as they moved in to jr high. She finally contacted this woman (they were in their late 30s at that point) to appologise and ask her forgiveness. To her surprise the old freind was dumbfounded and pointed out that at that age we all go through changes and often find new freinds. The old freind recounted several instances of things they had done together during that time and ways that she felt they had continued to help each other. The woman who had felt so guilty realized that there were positive things she had forgotten as she somehow focused on the negative. What really happened? It was probably some place in between, perspective is a big factor. This of course, isn't entirely analogous to your situation but the point is that memory and feelings are tricky things.

Your brother is now protecting himself. Your husband wants to protect you, but he knows only what you have shared and probably bases his response more on his perception of your feelings about it. As you move toward healing, you need to let him know what you are capable of handling so that his reaction on your behalf doesn't hold you back. You could reach the point that you are ready to let go and even meet with your brother but your husband won't be ready to accept it. Make sure are dealing with your needs rather than his perception of your needs. Right now it does sound like you dealing with your husband's responses as much as your own.

Counseling may be a good idea if you can find one who's focus will be helping you let go of your pain, confusion and guilt, rather than digging in an wallowing in it. (I've dealt with one who was into that and the counseling can end up more about theie issues than about you moving forward). Forgiving isn't about the other person admitting wrong, applogising or making things right - it's about you being able to move past what happened. My sense of this is that you let go of it and hand it back to them. Your're carrying around a heavy load but it really isn't yours. Everytime you think about this, give it your energy and your time, you are revictimizing yourself. You can't make your brother respond appropriately but you can let go of this and be there for your mother and family.