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  • You're right, bears may not technically hibernate, but they go into a biological slow down. Their heart, breathing and metabolic processes all slow down. I don't think humans do that, and I've never read any literature suggesting our ancestors did.

    I don't disagree with fasting, for short periods. Weren't you going for months? As I recall tho', your doctor supports it and is aware, so I'm not criticizing, I just disagree. And your experiencing good health, and I certainly don't disagree with that!
    People think my methods are radical too. I can identify.

    Amy, it's so true! Weight loss will bring out the wrinkles, as there's less fat to plump them up. I think the goal should always focus on health rather than appearance tho. Even though I have to check my own thoughts on this at times, our objective should be optimal health over looks.

    ETA: one of the most annoying questions I get is whether I'm a member of a certain animal rights group, because I'm mostly vegan. One of the difficult things for me has been to sort the medical info I find, and temper that with what seems to be political leanings by these docs that I also fear may skew their perspective as much as the junk food crowd.
    It can be very difficult to discern who's genuinely evaluating the science or promoting their agenda.
    Last edited by atskitty2; 10-30-2017, 07:55 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by atskitty2 View Post
      Their heart, breathing and metabolic processes all slow down. I don't think humans do that
      We do. Some of the other animals have specialized abilities in the extremes to which their metabolisms slow or the ways they burn fat, but the ability to use fat during fasting or reduced caloric intake is universal. It's accompanied by metabolic slowdown.

      It can be one of the downsides to fasting. You get cold and it's hard to warm up. Sometimes I dread shaking peoples' hands because mine are like ice.

      I've only done it for weeks, most recently 31.5 days. I've planned to do 60 days and would like to do it, but just haven't had the opportunity to do so comfortably. I have too many friends, family members, trips and events in my life that constantly distract me. The physical side of denial is easy. The psychological effects can be monstrous, though. And yeah, my doctor is cool with it. My fasts are a little different from strict water fasts, though. I've never done one of those for any significant period of time.
      "Those sowing seed with tears
      Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

      Comment


      • Jns I looked for the particular article I'd read about diabetes and I don't know which particular one I had read. It was one of the many written by either Dr. Neal Barnard or Dr. McDougall. They are 2 of the docs I've read the most info from, on reversing autoimmune disease, but diabetes is often coming up in my studies.
        They have some good research and good arguments, and I think you may at least enjoy the articles, or find them laughable

        One thing that does bring alarm for me, is that so many of the plant based docs seem to have a political motivation once you really start digging into their philosophy. There's often a ideology that I want to know is not clouding any evaluation of the research findings. They often promote their recommendations by saying "and you're saving the planet".
        I love Kris Carr and her "crazy sexy" diet, etc but I think she has an agenda she's promoting besides health.


        I have a conservationist mentality and I'm on board with environmental responsibility. I am a life long recycling junkie, from back before it was the cool thing to do lol
        But do I want that influencing my health recommendations?

        I agree with them to a certain extent, but I just don't want to believe that their own views on the environment are coloring the recommendations and research. I guess that's too idealistic tho, as I think the other research is jaded by their own views too.

        It's so frustrating. Bottom line is that the diet has helped me.
        Edited.
        Last edited by atskitty2; 10-31-2017, 08:33 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by atskitty2 View Post
          Jns I looked for the particular article I'd read about diabetes and I don't know which particular one I had read. It was one of the many written by either Dr. Neal Barnard or Dr. McDougall. They are 2 of the docs I've read the most info from, on reversing autoimmune disease, but diabetes is often coming up in my studies.
          They have some good research and good arguments, and I think you may at least enjoy the articles, or find them laughable

          One thing that does bring alarm for me, is that so many of the plant based docs seem to have a political motivation once you really start digging into their philosophy. There's often a ideology that I want to know is not clouding any evaluation of the research findings. They often promote their recommendations by saying "and you're saving the planet".
          I love Kris Carr and her "crazy sexy" diet, etc but I think she has an agenda she's promoting besides health.


          I have a conservationist mentality and I'm on board with environmental responsibility. I am a life long recycling junkie, from back before it was the cool thing to do lol
          But do I want that influencing my health recommendations?

          I agree with them to a certain extent, but I just don't want to believe that their own views on the environment are coloring the recommendations and research. I guess that's too idealistic tho, as I think the other research is jaded by their own views too.

          It's so frustrating. Bottom line is that the diet has helped me.
          Edited.
          Agendas pop up everywhere. I don't think that there is a one size fits all answer. Diversity can often be the key to survival such as has been theorized in the survival and adaptation of species. If you look at it one way, having a mostly plant based diet could create conditions for even more overpopulation and if there is a lack of some proteins in their diets, could make people stunted and sicklier. My feeling is that humans are adapted to have some animal based protein in their diets. To purposely go against that is going against the natural order. But each to his own beliefs. You experimenting with your diet for medical reasons and coming up with usable results is clever.
          I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience.
          ...
          Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?

          From a speech by Patrick Henry on March 23, 1775 at St. John's Church, Richmond, Virginia

          Comment


          • I agree, to some extent.

            I love animals and want to minimize or eliminate their suffering as well. I believe that some meat is necessary for my own body to fight the way I need it to. I've found that I don't need it daily however.

            Anyway, I am still fighting the little flare up I'm having. I did walk probably a mile yesterday and some light lifting. It is difficult and painful so I don't push. I feel better afterward, so it's not harmful, but I'm not able to do what I could a month ago. I did 3 miles before this thing hit harder...so disappointed that all the progress I'd made is delayed. I'll get back there, but, for now I will do only enough to keep me going.

            Comment


            • *askitty2 I’m really curious about what you think you get from animal products. I’ve heard this from other people, including my wife, but haven’t yet heard specifically what it is they’re missing. It always seems to be more of a “feeling” as opposed to an actual deficiency. And trust me when I say I get “feelings.” But is there something specific to you or your conditions that meat addresses?

              Also

              Originally posted by atskitty2 View Post
              I don't disagree with fasting, for short periods. Weren't you going for months? As I recall tho', your doctor supports it and is aware, so I'm not criticizing, I just disagree.
              Why do you disagree? I know it’s counterintuitive to the Western mind, but there’s some pretty good science on fasting in animals and humans. In animals, fasting and reduced calorie diets promotes health and increases life span.

              In humans, the health promotion is confirmed. It’s hard, cold science - even practiced as medicine in some countries (if I recall correctly, Russia and Germany are a couple). And I’m not talking about “alternative medicine.” I’m talking about medical centers with regular doctors and nurses paid by the state. The difference between them and me is that I’m doing it on my own and using liquidized plants instead of water.

              I haven’t dug deeply into it, so I don’t know about studies on longevity in humans, but there’s no good reason to expect it’s any different for us.
              "Those sowing seed with tears
              Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jns View Post
                My feeling is that humans are adapted to have some animal based protein in their diets. To purposely go against that is going against the natural order.
                Like you, I’m with people doing what works and feels good for them. But science allows us to understand things that feelings, intuition, and cultural understanding can’t. There’s decades of research and studies on plant-based diets. At best they show that meat eaters don’t do much worse than non-meat eaters overall. And most I’ve seen show that vegetarians do substantially better – especially in diseases of the cardio-vascular system like diabetes and heart disease, even some cancers.

                Look up any longitudinal studies (not cross-sectional ones) comparing meat-eaters with non-meat eaters. I challenge you to find one that puts meat-eaters ahead overall. Also, your beliefs on protein are misguided. The only deficiencies I’ve heard of in people who don’t eat animal products that seem to have some legitimacy are with regard to B12 and maybe fatty acid balance.
                "Those sowing seed with tears
                Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

                Comment


                • still, I find it interesting that my husband's one grandmother and one of my grandmothers enjoyed food, ate what they pleased including meats, sweets and they both lived into their middle 80s
                  I doubt either one of them ever went on a diet to lose weight in their lives, either
                  both overweight but not super overweight

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by amy40 View Post
                    still, I find it interesting that my husband's one grandmother and one of my grandmothers enjoyed food, ate what they pleased including meats, sweets and they both lived into their middle 80s
                    I doubt either one of them ever went on a diet to lose weight in their lives, either
                    both overweight but not super overweight
                    My father ate bread soaked in the oil and grease left over from making hamburgers in a skillet and not just a few times. He was never fat. That was not from dieting, rather from hard work. He lived to 94. But of course, nobody wants to work that hard these days. They would rather try all sorts of diets instead and tell everyone else that they have it wrong.
                    I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience.
                    ...
                    Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?

                    From a speech by Patrick Henry on March 23, 1775 at St. John's Church, Richmond, Virginia

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jns View Post
                      That was not from dieting, rather from hard work. He lived to 94. But of course, nobody wants to work that hard these days. .
                      you're right jns, they were all more hardy back then
                      so much was done by hand
                      my grandparents hung the clothes out to dry on a clothesline
                      my one set of grandparents never owned a car (they couldn't afford one) they had to walk everywhere

                      Comment


                      • amy40 I don't really understand what your point is with regard to your and your husband's grandmothers.

                        jns I've never told anyone their diet is wrong and I don't think that way. I'm still struggling to find dietary balance in my own life.

                        I don't understand why I've spent so much of my life being fat. I know it has to do with my diet, but I don't know what I have been doing wrong. When I resume my normal diet, I don't know if it will allow me to maintain my slimmer build. I'm somewhat jealous of people that don't think about food and just eat the way their parents, and their parents' parents have always eaten. I'm 42 and my own diet has been shifting since my late teens up until this very year.

                        What I do know is that, unless I lose my mind, I won't be fat like I have been again. I've gained mastery over my belly. I'll be whatever weight I desire. Proper diet and nutrition is complex and elusive to me, but self-control is simple.
                        "Those sowing seed with tears
                        Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Stillness View Post
                          amy40 I don't really understand what your point is with regard to your and your husband's grandmothers.
                          the point being back then, people didn't worry about what they ate or even dieted
                          so jns said they could eat what they wanted because they worked hard

                          and it's true, do you think the people who moved west on the wagon trains and horses had to diet?
                          modern man spends a lot of time in a car

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Stillness View Post
                            but self-control is simple.
                            I wish I had your self-control!
                            I was so skinny when got married
                            when I look at the watch I could wear back then (still have as it was a gift, can't believe my wrist was that tiny)



                            however, when I am stressed, I will eat anything that is in the house
                            sadly, our kid now writes name on our cheese as afraid I will eat it and kid won't have any for lunch
                            as I am a cheese addict

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Stillness View Post
                              When I resume my normal diet, I don't know if it will allow me to maintain my slimmer build.
                              probably not

                              if your fasting is cutting your normal calorie count by a lot, your body becomes more efficient, so when you resume your normal way of eating, you now have a more efficient body, that will burn up less calories

                              our body wants to maintain homeostasis
                              it always wants to return to what it was

                              that is why if someone works really hard to lose 50 lbs and then before you know it, when they get off the "diet" , they gain back the 50 (the body wants to return to that weight)
                              plus another 5 or so because the body became more efficient during the dieting phase

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stillness View Post
                                I'm still struggling to find dietary balance in my own life.

                                I don't understand why I've spent so much of my life being fat. I know it has to do with my diet, but I don't know what I have been doing wrong. When I resume my normal diet, I don't know if it will allow me to maintain my slimmer build. I'm somewhat jealous of people that don't think about food and just eat the way their parents, and their parents' parents have always eaten. I'm 42 and my own diet has been shifting since my late teens up until this very year.
                                Starting somewhere during the period of my mid thirties to my mid forties, my body no longer burned the calories it once did. At 39, my job changed from an inside job to an outside job. The inside job wasn't especially physical, but I had tight control over what I ate and when I ate it. Since there wasn't a lot of food options at the work site, eating too many calories was limited to occasional restaurant meals. The outside job was much more physical but meals were typically fast food. Needless to say, I gained weight.
                                I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience.
                                ...
                                Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?

                                From a speech by Patrick Henry on March 23, 1775 at St. John's Church, Richmond, Virginia

                                Comment

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