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  • Originally posted by atskitty2 View Post
    Read up on the dairy industry, if you wanna talk about humane treatment....if we're going to take a stand based on animal welfare, let's be consistent and also stop dairy consumption.
    The ethical vegans don’t eat dairy for that reason. It’s interesting how they view things. I found out recently that some of them will eat eggs and even brainless seafood, like clams.

    I do care about animals, but I just care about us infinitely more. I’ll worry about them after we’re all okay.
    "Those sowing seed with tears
    Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

    Comment


    • There are a lot of "ethical veGETarians" that have no problem with the dairy farms...where cattle are treated really poorly. I am just pointing out an inconsistency as I see it. Eating meat is bothersome, yet knowing there are living cows in poor condition is not bothersome. I think many are just unaware, but I seldom bring it up. It's a sensitive topic, and I don't judge harshly for their choice, I just don't quite understand it.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by atskitty2 View Post
        There are a lot of "ethical veGETarians" that have no problem with the dairy farms...where cattle are treated really poorly. I am just pointing out an inconsistency as I see it. Eating meat is bothersome, yet knowing there are living cows in poor condition is not bothersome. I think many are just unaware, but I seldom bring it up. It's a sensitive topic, and I don't judge harshly for their choice, I just don't quite understand it.
        Ah, I’ve never heard of an ethical vegetarian.

        I haven’t eaten animal flesh since 2003 (at least not knowingly or intentionally). That’s brought me tons of contact and conversations with vegetarians and vegans of varying degrees - countless family, friends, clients, spiritual brothers and sisters, workmates and just people I run into. There are discussions about diet, health, mental states, body design, spirituality. Animals come into the conversation, of course, but I never meet people that say, “I don’t eat meat because I care about animals.” Maybe it’s something about me or the circles I run in?

        Counterintuitively, the people that seem to be the most concerned about animal welfare for the sake of animals are the people that eat them.
        "Those sowing seed with tears
        Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

        Comment


        • Well, maybe that's my title for them??
          i work with a couple of these vegetarians and have a family member who is also.

          And to be clear, It is not a criticism, necessarily. I support the choice, I just don't understand the inconsistency in it.

          Comment


          • You're right there, atskitty2: there are processes in our bodies that we don't know about or only know a little about. I certainly do not know the ins and out of human biology. But I have common sense. Still, when it comes to weight loss, I think everyone has their own approach. I don't starve myself, but I do avoid desserts and the suchlike. I suppose it's just common sense prevailing.

            Anyhow, an interesting topic.

            Comment


            • Kitty, I’m guessing they’re probably doing what they know or taking baby steps.

              I understand because I more repulsed by meat than by dairy or eggs. It’s why there are so many more ovo-lacto vegetarians than strict vegans. In practice, most dairy and eggs involve bad conditions for the animals, but not in theory and not always. But meat necessitates harm and tastes and feels differently. It seems more barbaric to kill and eat an animal.

              Even though I half claim to be a vegan, I ate some dessert at a party a couple of days ago that probably had dairy and eggs. I didn’t ask, I just ate. But I avoided the meat like the plague. It’s different. There would have to be heavy pressure on me to eat meat.
              "Those sowing seed with tears
              Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

              Comment


              • I get that part of it Still. I agree and understand your points, it's still an inconsistency in my mind, because **many** if not most dairy cows are living in pretty sad condition. And if you're making this choice from an animal welfare POV, then suffering is just not acceptable at any level.

                Comment


                • I’m in another serious weight loss push. I think this is the one that will bring me close to the size I want to be. If all goes according to the plan, in a few days I’ll be the lightest I’ve been since I was in my teens. In a few weeks I’ll be the slimmest I’ve been in my life.

                  I've decided to give up heavy resistance training until I reach my target weight. I’ve had fun over the past year, but it’s stifled my weight loss goals. I doubt I’ve lost more than 30 pounds over the past year. Even if I put on some muscle, it’s still unacceptable.

                  The dissapointing thing about this is that I come in contact with the most absurd concepts from my friends, most notably when I’m losing weight. My Asian friends are almost uniformly congratulatory and encouraging. But America has extremely dysfunctional elements in its culture in regard to food and health. It’s heartbreaking to hear my loved ones discourage me from losing weight and make fun of me for “wasting away.” One older, female friend made a degrading display of telling me that I look like a zipper if I turn sideways and stick my tongue out. I’m obese! It’s insane.

                  What’s even worse is the denial and justification for their own unhealthiness. “I don’t want to lose muscle.” “I want other guys to respect me.” Those are a couple of crazy ones I’ve heard this week. And I’m not pressuring anybody. In most cases they’re initiating these conversations.
                  "Those sowing seed with tears
                  Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

                  Comment


                  • My post got flagged as spam! Lol
                    "Those sowing seed with tears
                    Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stillness View Post
                      I’m in another serious weight loss push. I think this is the one that will bring me close to the size I want to be. If all goes according to the plan, in a few days I’ll be the lightest I’ve been since I was in my teens. In a few weeks I’ll be the slimmest I’ve been in my life.

                      I've decided to give up heavy resistance training until I reach my target weight. I’ve had fun over the past year, but it’s stifled my weight loss goals. I doubt I’ve lost more than 30 pounds over the past year. Even if I put on some muscle, it’s still unacceptable.

                      The dissapointing thing about this is that I come in contact with the most absurd concepts from my friends, most notably when I’m losing weight. My Asian friends are almost uniformly congratulatory and encouraging. But America has extremely dysfunctional elements in its culture in regard to food and health. It’s heartbreaking to hear my loved ones discourage me from losing weight and make fun of me for “wasting away.” One older, female friend made a degrading display of telling me that I look like a zipper if I turn sideways and stick my tongue out. I’m obese! It’s insane.

                      What’s even worse is the denial and justification for their own unhealthiness. “I don’t want to lose muscle.” “I want other guys to respect me.” Those are a couple of crazy ones I’ve heard this week. And I’m not pressuring anybody. In most cases they’re initiating these conversations.
                      There is a negative push by those who might have to look at themselves and determine if there is something that they should be doing.I am glad your Asian friends are encouraging you. It is always nice to have some friends in your corner. I don't know why the filter flagged your post. I approved it. Best wishes on your new plan. Be sure to keep tight track of things since you had some unexpected results in the past.
                      I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience.
                      ...
                      Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?

                      From a speech by Patrick Henry on March 23, 1775 at St. John's Church, Richmond, Virginia

                      Comment


                      • Thanks, jns!

                        Originally posted by jns View Post
                        Be sure to keep tight track of things since you had some unexpected results in the past.
                        This time I'm not tracking much. I hate tracking. That's why I don't count calories, points, macros, or exclude foods I enjoy. I'd rather not eat anything at all than to not be able to eat whatever I want until I'm stuffed. Maybe that's why it's taking me so long and why I fail so much. I don't know.

                        I'm not keeping a log, taking pictures, or weighing myself daily. I've been at it for 6 days now and I don't even know how much weight I've lost. The 10-day fast in November was an interesting experiment. But, this time I just plan on pushing hard until I hit around 185-190 Pounds.

                        Even if I fail to make it long enough, I'm still excited about the power I'll have when it's over. Unlike in November, I'll be in a position to capitalize on it.
                        "Those sowing seed with tears
                        Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

                        Comment


                        • Actually I meant to be in tune with what your body is telling you as you go into uncharted waters (for you). If you feel weak, evaluate things to be sure it isn't something to be worried about. Push ahead but be cautious at the same time.
                          I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience.
                          ...
                          Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?

                          From a speech by Patrick Henry on March 23, 1775 at St. John's Church, Richmond, Virginia

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jns View Post
                            Actually I meant to be in tune with what your body is telling you as you go into uncharted waters (for you). If you feel weak, evaluate things to be sure it isn't something to be worried about. Push ahead but be cautious at the same time.
                            Ah. Wise counsel.

                            The waters are mostly charted, although I’m constantly learning and refining my techniques. So, this time I didn’t have the horrible feelings that I had in the middle of my fast in November. I’m breezing through, at least physically.

                            I plan on going much longer, but it shouldn’t be an issue. We’re made to fast. It’s what fat is for. The body knows exactly what to do. It’s amazing!
                            "Those sowing seed with tears
                            Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Stillness View Post
                              The dissapointing thing about this is that I come in contact with the most absurd concepts from my friends, most notably when I’m losing weight. My Asian friends are almost uniformly congratulatory and encouraging. But America has extremely dysfunctional elements in its culture in regard to food and health. It’s heartbreaking to hear my loved ones discourage me from losing weight and make fun of me for “wasting away.” One older, female friend made a degrading display of telling me that I look like a zipper if I turn sideways and stick my tongue out. I’m obese! It’s insane.

                              What’s even worse is the denial and justification for their own unhealthiness. “I don’t want to lose muscle.” “I want other guys to respect me.” Those are a couple of crazy ones I’ve heard this week. And I’m not pressuring anybody. In most cases they’re initiating these conversations.

                              Yep...as we've discussed before with the skinny shaming. Maybe we should call it healthy shaming.
                              Thankfully my current workplace is much better than the previous. I've not had many comments about "me", but I get a lot of crazy conversations about my food at lunch.
                              Charge on! Be confident in your healthy choices. Be wise as jns says, but be as healthy as possible! It's really all we have, to be healthy and happy.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by atskitty2 View Post
                                Maybe we should call it healthy shaming.
                                Thankfully my current workplace is much better than the previous. I've not had many comments about "me", but I get a lot of crazy conversations about my food at lunch.
                                Happy to hear you're in a better environment.

                                Before I thought the shaming came from a place of guilt and shame and was just projection. But now I think it's deeper, worse.

                                Have you ever heard Americans discuss the recommended weight charts? They're always "wrong." I'm guilty of that view too. I absolutely can't imagine myself at even the absolute top of the recommendation, let alone somewhere beneath. I actually had a client that's a professional trainer who wants to work with me recommend that I be at the weight I am now - 35 pounds above the maximum. There's no amount of muscle that would make that acceptable, even if I was a professional body builder.

                                Somehow we're all "special" and the charts don't apply to us. We encourage "dad bods" and "thick" women. My wife told me a few days ago that she was kinda sad to see her curves disappearing. I'm crushed that I may have encouraged that. I like her curvier, but I prefer her healthier. And she looks better slim. Everybody does.
                                "Those sowing seed with tears
                                Will reap with a joyful shout." - Psalm 126

                                Comment

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