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Husband upset because I don't want sex

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  • I found your post to be an incredibly fascinating read, but, at times, I had no idea what point you were making. If you don't mind, I have some particular comments:

    Originally posted by raindancer View Post

    She had to tell you what she liked. And when you do it, she gets the feeling you didn't have the initiative to do those things before, you had to ask, and that you're only doing them to get your reward, not because you actually enjoy giving her pleasure. When you had your chance to see she wasn't getting her part of the sex deal and do something about it, you didn't bother doing those things for her. You're all interested now, because you suffer the consequences of her lack of interest. You aren't doing anything for her. You're doing it for yourself.
    This smacks of withholding sex as a punishment than positive relationship building. Communication is at the heart of relationships. If a partner isn't getting what s/he wants, then communicate about it so change can occur. It seems childish not to accept positive change because "I had to ask". As you write later on, we all act in our own interest AND (I would posit) in the interests of furthering the happiness of the partnership. There always needs to be a path to redemption. Your partner is not a child who needs a time out from sex because he had to be told what you need.



    Mismatched sex drive is many times due to something very simple: people want to feel as if there was something magnanimous about giving pleasure.

    Originally posted by raindancer View Post
    clitoris play is often done in manners that make the woman feel as if that was some extra she might get, or not. . . Many men do it as if they were doing a favor, or they make the woman feel as if it was a favor.
    I agree that too many men believe that there is a distinction between sex acts . . . that there is something designated as foreplay and then there is the main event. All of it, from the first kiss to the last lick is part of an integrated "sex session" as it were. Both partners trying to please each other and be pleased, regardless of whether intercourse occurs or not -- frankly, whether both orgasm or not.

    But here is where you lose me:

    Originally posted by raindancer View Post
    There is intercourse, for instance, and the clitoris play is something that may happen, time and energy allowing, etc. It isn't granted. It is some added value, an accessory to the main thing ******************************** Intercourse. It's so good. I love it. I crave it. But I won't orgasms purely from it. I need something going on on my clitoris to achieve that. And I'm not trying to reproduce. So, why should intercourse, for instance, be the main part of sex for me, and clitoris stimulation be something that it is added, or not, depending on position, or something.

    I find it quite telling some men are proud to say their women come first, so, they give them plenty of oral at the beginning, then proceeding to intercourse, or something. That and the thing that after a man orgasms, he's often off it for a while.

    But why are men thinking that women, after they orgasm from their male partners efforts on the preliminaries, are still in the mood for the rest of what sex is going to be? Guys are off it after orgasm... women are supposed to be on it after they orgasm? I don't see the logic. Why would that be? Because it is convenient for the man?

    My point: if you want to keep your woman interested on having sex, thinking that it is worth the bother, don't isolate her orgasm and the things that make her have an O from the core of a sex session. It isn't really something to be proud of to give her an orgasm at the beginning, then move on to other sex stuff, expecting her to be still in the mood after an O. Instead, move together. A sex session should be all about both of you, the whole of it.
    I don't understand this at all. Men should make clitoris play a focus (rather than intercourse) because it gets a woman to orgasm. Yet, don't focus on it first and get a woman to orgasm and then expect her to be involved in whatever happens next. My SO loves cunnilingus almost as much as I lover performing. Though there are several positions we can do, the most pleasurable for her is when I am between her legs. Am I supposed to stop before she orgasms? After she stings one or two or three orgasms together, should we be done? That would seem to violate you thesis that we are all in this for our own pleasure.

    It is hard for oral of any type, if performed well, not to be disconnected. I hate 69 positions because it is hard to focus on giving when receiving. Also, if you crave intercourse (my SO does regardless of whether she orgasms because she loves the feeling of my being inside of her), why is it wrong to add clitoral stimulation? What is the other great stuff that we are missing?

    Personally, it seems to me that there is a physiologic reason for a man to cum last. As an example, my SO is rarely wiped out from orgasming . . . she usually wants another. I concede that at my age, it's one time per session and it gets me sleepy. Is it really wrong for me to make sure that she has been pleasured to the extent she wants before that happens?

    In any event, I agree that no one should be self sacrificing in bed. If there is a goal, it should be mutual pleasure and deepening the emotional,connection. To me, this calls for communication in and out of the bedroom. Partners need to know what works and what doesn't. How our individual needs get met should not be a secret but openly discussed. It also requires an understanding that shutting down intimacy will significantly damage a relationship.
    "The only consistent feature of all of your dissatisfying relationships is you." Despair.com "Dysfunction"

    Comment


    • I'm on my phone, so, excuse me if I don't answer all the questions. I can come back tomorrow with the computer to see if I forgot to answer something. This post is long. I apologize and remind you, guys, that nobody is forced to read. You're free to ignore it.

      The thing about not having sex: it isn't like punishing the other in a childish way. It is just a loss of interest. Sex is disappointing for sometime. One of the partners gradually loses interest. As in why bother? As in one can't be bothered to go through the moves, end up having to clean somebody's sperm from one's body, for no good enough reason.

      I'd like to say I'm really not trying to offend anyone. I'm trying to offer a keyhole view on things that are talked between women, stuff that perhaps men should know. Do all women think like this? Of course not. I was careful in my post to point out I wasn't talking about all women. How could I?

      For the stimulation and rushing of the "women first" movement, I'd like to try to explain my point with an example.

      I know a good handjob will make men come (please, never think I'm talking about all men/women: I'm talking some/many/most, but never all). So, since I want to guarantee my man orgasms, I'll start sex, every single time, with a great handjob, to make sure he orgasms.

      I have the best intention. I want to make sure he comes. But how boring would that be for him! After I've done my dutiful handjob, I'd go on to have the most fantastic sex... for me. But how much of it would he enjoy after he had orgasmed from my handjob?

      And how would that make him feel, year after year? He loves that handjob, but with time, perhaps hell end up having it. Because of what it represents. It's his partner taking the easy/shortcut path.

      There are women/men who can have multiple orgasms, who'll have very long sex sessions, orgasming again and again. But how representative of the general population is that? I've had a partner who could have sex the whole day. He, and I, would have orgasm after orgasm. How representative is this sex god from the general male population? Are women with multiple orgasms really the majority of us?

      Talking within couples is paramount. However, let's put things into perspective. Another example.

      During a long time, sex wasn't good enough to keep one of the partners interested, say A. It's nobody's fault. But it was so. Partner A lost interest. He/she isn't punishing anyone. A just can't find a reason to go through the moves. It's more of a burden, than a pleasure. Partner B keeps trying. With time, the insisting of B will really annoy A. Another reason sex will just bring bad feelings to A.

      After a lot of pestering from B, frustration for both, B decides to talk about it. B finally asks the question: what do you want? I'll do it for you, just tell me what it is you want.

      A doesn't want anything, actually. A just doesn't want to talk about sex anymore. I mean, A wants something: to be done with it. For A, it's been dead for quite some time. But B pushes on. Then A says he/she liked this or that kind of stimulation. A isn't saying that because A still wants to do it. A is answering a question about something that could have worked a couple of years ago, after much pushing from B. A isn't actually asking for it to be done.

      Then, with the new information, B goes to work on it. But A has lost interest. A can't be bothered. A's memory of sex isn't really something more exciting than taking a nap, reading a good book, chatting on the phone with friends.

      I'm not saying there's one right and one wrong. It just happened. It's sad, but so it is for many couples. Many, not all, of course.

      I don't have this problem. About two hours ago, I've given my man a prolific moaning, groaning orgasm. He gave me a screaming orgasm that woke up the neighbors. But why can't people with good sex lives look beyond and have compassion for those without? Your woman has multiples? She orgasms from anal alone, no clit touching? Fantastic! Come join us and let's do it all together. But must we be blind to the fact so many women have difficulties to orgasm? About one third of women don't orgasm at all. Are we going to talk about the exceptions in this thread, where people with issues are posting?

      Now, about the new paradigm. Stimulate her with different things she likes, all throughout a sex session. It can start with manual/oral, but not to completion. Intercourse interspersed with oral and manual stimulation. Tongue tours during sessions, as opposed to massages only at the beginning. Use of other stimulation media during: feathers on clit, breast and back, for instance. The use of toys, not as in always, but sometimes, and never exclusively. The use of cold and hot stimulation. The use of pressure of one's warm hands, or cold hands (after touching something icy) on different parts of the body. Audio stimulation, by means of saying things, complimenting, moaning.

      Clits can be held, as opposed to being rubbed. Penetration while one's holding clit firmly can be terribly arousing for a woman. Humping different body parts.

      Vibration from silently humming close to clit, ears, neck, nape. A hand where one can rub, when one stretches to reach. Oily hands grabbing thighs firmly, thumbs tantalizing clit in the meanwhile, during penetration from behind (anal, or not). Water play (I mean water, no pee) given by a partner, while the other hand plays with breast, in bath.

      Sensorial play, where one sense is isolated for stimulation. Mental play.

      I don't want to offend anyone. I'm sure I'm preaching to priests. Besides, I'm good at stimulating men, not women, as I'm hetero. I've just listed things I like done to me, not claimed other women will like the same.

      Anything that doesn't make a woman feel as if he was ticking a box as fast as possible, so that it is his turn.

      A last word, this one about the vicious circle. It is very difficult to fix something. It's better not to break it in the first place. But it's done. How to change things? Next time you do have sex, surprise her. Not with something for you, and not with something she's told you she liked. You have to come up with something creative, all about her, something good. Something that will make her want more. Make her curious for more. It is starting something new, not repeating something old. Totally new.

      Sometimes creating a new space and doing things right is better than trying to debug. The routine is bugged. Ignore it and, instead of debugging, write a new routine.

      I'd advice against trying to guilt trip her with stuff like "every time you ignore my advances, it makes me feel you don't care for what is important to me." It could back fire, if she'd say something like "every time you push for sex, knowing I don't want it, you're violating me." You don't want the situation to go this ugly direction. Both of you could end up saying hurtful things none of you really think.

      Remember we don't know her and we don't know you. This is all general talk. If something is useful to you, good. If not, just ignore it.

      Sorry for the long post. It's because I care. I wish everybody had a fantastic sex life.

      Comment


      • Raindancer,

        I am impressed with your new paradigm. All of your suggestions are incredibly sensual . . . Some I've used (but not in that way) and some I have never thought about. It makes a lot of sense.

        I take issue, however, with your example of A and B.

        You write "During a long time, sex wasn't good enough to keep one of the partners interested, say A. It's nobody's fault. But it was so. Partner A lost interest. He/she isn't punishing anyone. A just can't find a reason to go through the moves. It's more of a burden, than a pleasure. Partner B keeps trying. With time, the insisting of B will really annoy A. Another reason sex will just bring bad feelings to A."

        There is plenty of fault in your scenario. First, "A" should have communicated his/her issue at the first sign and "B" should have been perceptive enough to to see that "A" was losing interest.

        Second, the notion that one party to the marriage "can't find a reason to go through with the moves" indicates the beginning if the end to the marriage. Asexual marriages aside, intimacy is one of the key components of a healthy marriage. Marriage takes work and someone who shuts down sexually out of boredom and does not provide a path to the resumption of intimacy is indeed punishing his or her spouse. I know plenty of marriages that have turned into roommate situations and the spouse in need of a sexual release generally finds it elsewhere. Is that what A wanted out of his or her marriage? Here is my truth -- if A truly loves B, he or she needs to find a way to rekindle the spark. If A thinks that a healthy sex life with his or her spouse is akin to being violated, A needs to be the one to file for divorce.

        Third, "B" is at fault of neglect. Begging or whining for sex is clearly not the way. B needs to work hard to find the path for better intimacy. If A shoots down every plan . . . communication, therapy or your new sexual paradigm, then the two of them should seriously consider divorce or an open marriage.

        B writes to us all of the time, as can be seen in this thread. Is the best advice to B that sex is over, live with it? It is indeed sad, but fixable if A and B are willing. If not, why play the charade of marriage?
        "The only consistent feature of all of your dissatisfying relationships is you." Despair.com "Dysfunction"

        Comment


        • There is a lot of god discussions here, and I find many things really interesting. As Effy2014 points out there are enough of B's that write all the time, and I am one of the B's. But I hope that most B's here really writes because they want to improve their situation for both part's, not just their own. If that's the case I think that's bad. I believe that in a good marriage both partners love to have sex with each other.

          For my part I see a lot of valuable input. And of course I and the other B's have to try to read and listen to out partners. And believe me that's what I am trying to do. But the expression "Women is from Venus and Men from Mars" comes from somewhere. There are often easier for someone of the same sex to know what might be the problem. But that does not mean that everyone the same sex know or will guess what's right. But they might have valuable input to to help B. Then B have to try to figure out what's right in their situation.

          For my own sake I might have gone into raindancers explanation. Because I am so eager to please my wife she almost always gets of first. Then it's "my turn"(usually intercourse) even thought I would be just as happy or not happier with a BJ more often, and this can be done before or after her orgasm. Since I am rarely the one ending the session, me being the foreplay would not be a problem. When it comes to me and hopefully a lot of the B's here, I hope they have tried to mix things up and find new ways to please their partner, I know I have. But then again my wife have never complained or shown any resentment or unhappiness with the technical part of sex. More about what I see from others view here the constant pestering/nagging about more sex than she want's. That's what I think might be the problem for me. She sees it as more of a job than pleasure.

          Now my wife does not even wanna talk about sex, and gets annoyed with me wanting to, or even for that matter wanting to relieve tension. I can't even read news for here about sex without her getting annoyed. This is where I need suggestions/help, to find out how to turn this trend. For those of you that have a sex drive that want's it daily, you know how hard it is to go weeks and months without it. And taking matters into own hands is not very helpful in the long run.

          As Effy2014 says B needs to work hard to find the path for better intimacy. This is where I know I am and maybe some other B's as well. And this is where I need help from someone the same gender as my wife. And that I might be helpful for Female B's to help find that path.

          So will B's not nagging for sex and hide their sexual needs over time make A more interested? Or are there other tips or clues that anyone can give when A's not even willing to talk about sex?

          And I remember someone talking about household chores. That's for me at least a prerequisite for a Gender Equality and a mutual sex drive.

          Comment


          • Like all important marital issues, communication is not only essential, I believe that it is required. A's (in this scenario, the partner who has lost interest in sex -- see posts 32 and 33) who refuse to communicate over this (or any important marital issue) are responsible for the consequences. Usually it means a very resentful partner and a very tenuous emotional connection. Now, in all fairness to A, communication is generally not B's strongest asset. Communication requires a safe environment without judgment, with a heart full of love and understanding and with a mindset of both partners willing to change behaviors under defined circumstances. Most couples do not have a clue how to communicate, and that is where couples therapy is most effective.

            Many of the B's ask why the A's don't understand the importance of intimacy in a marriage. There are a plethora of possibilities including cultural background, upbringing, religion etc. I am sure many A's don't think the lack of intimacy [I]should[I] be an issue and think B's are just oversexed and need to chill. I would be very interested to hear from the A's on this issue.

            In truth, most A's don't just lose interest. From the many posters here, there are usually marital causes for the lack of sex. Intimacy, or should I write lost intimacy, is usually a consequence of a failing marriage. There was an initial breakdown of trust, respect, empathy or compassion which resulted in the lack of interest. In my view, A's generally feel hopelessly unappreciated for their contributions to the marriage and therefore see sex as a duty rather than loving behavior.
            "The only consistent feature of all of your dissatisfying relationships is you." Despair.com "Dysfunction"

            Comment


            • As you love your man you should make him happy.

              U can try let him suck your boobs and ride upon him. I had this problem at first. He was very unhappy.

              Then i endure this technique. Actually my hubby is totally a breastman. He loves to suck my boobs, even always he wants it. He starts it with sucking my boobs. He do sucking, licking, messaging, kissing and biting my nipple. Sometimes he sucks both the nipples at a time. As I have very busty and bouncy breasts, so its not a problem. To tell the truth i got it by my hubby's love, my 32B boobs become 40D with his love within 5yrs.

              I then ride upon him, he sits and bend my waist with his hand, I bend his neck and bury his head in my boobs. I push his ******** in my vagina. he starts sucking my boobs. I ride on his ******** madly. My boobs just bounces, he bites my nipple hardly and tightly. He doesn't loose his bite to my nipples. I become mad at this. The more hardly he bites my nipple

              Comment


              • I love to breastfeed my husband

                I love to breastfeed my hubby. He loves it and I want to make him happy. He is totally a breastman. I am breastfeeding him for 4.5yrs.

                I love to see how he sucks and lick my boobs and nipples. It makes our love life secure and enjoyable. I sleep braless, so that he can get easy access to my boobs. He sleeps on my breasts, sucks, kisses, give message, lick and bite those. sometimes i put some honey, chocolate or sauce on my nipples. He cleans that with his tongue and sucks my boobs hardly, He bites my nipples hardly when I ride on him (actually i always ride on him i love this most), I enjoy it and it makes my liquid out. We get the relief high.

                My hubby loves my bouncy breasts. Actually I have got 40D busty bouncy boobs. Those were only 32B when I met my dear hubby. He made them huge by his love. I don't want to stop breastfeeding my hubby, coj it makes our relation strong and deep. And moreover it makes me horny to him. He loves how gradually my breasts are increasing their size. He wants those to be more and more busty and me also want so, coj my dear hubby wants so. We love each other very much and breastfeeding supports us to love each other deeply. He does not get tired sucking my boobs and i also never been tired breastfeeding him. I call him MY LITTLE BABY. We have a child and we are a happy family.

                I stopped breastfeeding him only for a few months while our baby born. But this badly effected our love life. He was not satisfied then. He doesn't want to loose his grip from my boobs.

                I love to ride on him while sucking my boobs, and that happily end with a love making. It leaves with a mental and physical peace. He loves my boobs bouncing and hard nipples. So I usually stay braless at home. And his eyes keep watching my boobs bouncing. I enjoy much when his eyes become hungry seeing my bouncing boobs. My nipple changes their shape, become hard and longer when my greedy man looks at them.My boobs are his best food, energy booster and best entertainment. OH! of course its his confession.

                Some women say that their bouncing boobs hurt during love making. I will suggest them to ask their hubby to bite hardly their nipples during love making. My hubby bites my two nipples together hard and tightly when i ride on him, so i dont need his hands support to boobs. My bouncing boobs get support of his teeth, those bounce rapidly but in front direction as my both the nipples are under my sweet hubby's teeth. He bend my waist with hands, message my back and bite my nipples with his sharp teeth. Its a great feelings, the pain is awesome. I ride on him madly. I push his head to my boobs, message his hair and neck and kiss his ear and forehead. We both love this, coj it picks us to the high of love and satisfaction. We both are highly satisfied max time.


                Some women I heard that they are not passionate to love making. I will suggest them to try breastfeeding their husband. It will definitely work anywhere and anytime.

                I am always very careful about my husband's need. So he loves me more and more. He says he is lucky to have me, but i say i am very very lucky to have him.

                Comment


                • I think that what you are describing is more the normal than the exception.
                  That which we forget may as well never really happened.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Claret View Post
                    I think that what you are describing is more the normal than the exception.
                    To which post did your comment apply Claret? I'm not sure that Breastfeeding one's husband as Femina reports is all that popular. Nor are breasts growing from a 32B to a 40C. But I have lived a moderately sheltered life.
                    "The only consistent feature of all of your dissatisfying relationships is you." Despair.com "Dysfunction"

                    Comment


                    • I was just speaking generally of breast play during sex by one's partner. It all seems pretty normal to me.

                      We don't know how old the poster was when she and her husband got together, but maturing and having children will grow breasts.

                      It also seems that she is not really "breastfeeding" as she states she stopped this sexual activity when her child was born.

                      So, in my mind, it all seems quite normal.
                      That which we forget may as well never really happened.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by effy2014 View Post
                        There is plenty of fault in your scenario. First, "A" should have communicated his/her issue at the first sign and "B" should have been perceptive enough to to see that "A" was losing interest.
                        I've taken the liberty of putting in red the flaw of your argument. In my humble opinion, the one no one has to agree with.

                        Should/Could/Would... these are all ways to talk about something that wasn't done. I understood you think the fact they weren't done is some kind of proof someone was at fault.

                        At first sight, one wants to agree with you. However, it goes against findings in neuroscience. We don't make decisions based on reason. Men and women make decisions that are emotional. That's how we make decisions. You can reason as much as you wish, but the moment you have to make a decision, your emotions will dictate it. Don't believe me. Research about the matter.

                        A won't communicate his/her needs, because A wants B to act from her/his own devise. If A would decide what to do, upon not being satisfied, from reason, make a rational decision about the course to follow, A would surely dialogue about it with B. But A will decide with emotions. So, A will wait B to do what A needs.

                        We can extrapolate that A will continue doing something else we, reasoning, rationally, know it's not a good idea: act as if everything was OK. A loves B. A doesn't want to give B a bad experience, or a bad impression of her/himself. A also doesn't want B to feel inappropriate, incompetent in love making, etc.

                        How can we set blame, when we know how we make decisions? Looking at it coolly, as the outsider, we see the problem as a problem of communication. But the reason communication isn't working, is because the course of action from both A and B are being decided emotionally. And that is true for both men and women.

                        Now, should/could/might/would... it's past. The fact is, it didn't happen. We can blame, or we can move forward. If we blame, we're ignoring the science behind decision making. Pick a side. I won't blame.

                        Originally posted by effy2014 View Post
                        Second, the notion that one party to the marriage "can't find a reason to go through with the moves" indicates the beginning if the end to the marriage. Asexual marriages aside, intimacy is one of the key components of a healthy marriage...
                        ...if A truly loves B, he or she needs to find a way to rekindle the spark. If A thinks that a healthy sex life with his or her spouse is akin to being violated, A needs to be the one to file for divorce.
                        Wow, you have your mind set on what marriage should be. Textbook-wise, OK. But look around yourself. How many of these perfect marriages are there? And anyway, would this thread exist at all, should all marriages be like this?

                        There are plenty of marriages out there between loving partners who go on with "dysfunctional" sex arrangements. And there are many considerations to be taken into account before one files for divorce. What if sex is bad, but there is companionship, there are children, grandchildren.

                        You'll perhaps feel like arguing keeping a marriage without perfect sex life going is bad for the children. But can you really affirm that's the case for all such arrangements?
                        ____

                        You go on to say what people should do, or should have done. Well, they didn't do it. I believe when they say they've tried. It didn't happen.

                        What should they do? Only they know... no, they don't really know.

                        All I'm doing is proposing one point of view. One point of view that may, or not help people to understand their situation. Even when it doesn't apply directly to a particular couple, the fact of thinking of a situation from different perspectives, sometimes gives one an EUREKA moment. We're all trying to help.
                        ____

                        I'm going to insist on the decision making process. I've told you it is emotion-guided, as opposed to rational. For men and women. We're all from Earth on this matter. I'm repeating that, because there is this myth of communication as a panacea.

                        We may talk as much as we want. It helps (sometimes it doesn't!). But it doesn't necessarily solve problems. Why? I give an example from another thread. A loving couple, with very open dialogue, super communication going on, has the following problem: C wants more sexual experiences. D wants exclusive relationship. D understands C and they talk openly about options. But D is jealous and can't just accept C having sex with other people.

                        They've talked! But there is a real difference in expectations and emotions are involved (jealousy).

                        Now, I don't understand jealousy. But who cares what I understand? She's jealous.

                        Who's at fault? C? C is being open about his/her feelings. Can we control our desires? We can control what we do about them. C can forever renounce to sex with others. But C has that desire. C wishes he/she didn't feel this way. But C does.

                        That's just an example to show that perfect communication still can't solve problems.

                        In the case of A and B, the problem is there and the problem is real. And very, very difficult to solve. I didn't say it can't be solved. How would I know?

                        It's difficult to solve. I suggested a course of action in my second post. B should use whatever opportunity that arises for sex, may it be in two months, to give A something unexpected. Something very good. Something A will want to try again. And, mainly: something A never asked. A surprise.

                        I've used programmers talk to explain that: when a routine doesn't work, when it has a bug, one tries to debug. That can be quite difficult, to find a fault somewhere. It can take a lot of time, in some cases.

                        Well, instead of debugging, why not write a new routine? A brand new one?

                        The new routine would be the surprise, the unexpected. Something that would be so good, A would want more. Something 100% giving, 0% receiving. I'm not saying it should always be self-sacrificing. But to start a new routine afresh, it should pass by that stage.

                        Happy people want to give back. Happy people are generous. A happy A would want to go back.
                        __________________

                        Does it apply for everybody? No, surely not. But if it could help, isn't it worth a try?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Lexhill View Post
                          So will B's not nagging for sex and hide their sexual needs over time make A more interested? Or are there other tips or clues that anyone can give when A's not even willing to talk about sex?
                          We're all different and what works for one won't necessarily work for another. I'm only going to give you my opinions. Everybody is free to disagree. Here it goes.

                          Nagging for anything is a very bad move.

                          Insisting on talking about something that clearly annoys the other person involved isn't always a good idea, either.

                          How to solve this problem without dialogue, then? I wish I knew. I really do.

                          First, I'd like you to understand how difficult it is to have sex without libido. Having sex without desire is extremely difficult. It may seem simple. Lay down, open your legs, try to relax. Smile, to make your partner feel comfortable about the act. Caress him. Penetration. Bear it. Think of his good. It'll be soon over. It's done. Dry yourself. Go to sleep.

                          In reality, it feels like being violated. It is depressing, because you wish you'd feel desire. You love him. Nothing. Why does it feel like being violated? I don't know. But it does. Perhaps it comes from stories you hear, from the idea pee and sperm comes through the same canal and you're just another version of a toilet. I'm shocking in my language. I don't want to shock, nor hurt anyone feelings. I'm just trying to explain the unexplainable. But it is a fact I've heard women talk about themselves and their feelings about the act of sex in this way, when it is just a favor for the man. Do all women think like this? Of course not!

                          Anyway, it is very difficult to have sex without desire. When a person stops accepting sex, it's usually after a period of time she/he has actually had it without wanting it. For the sake of the other. So, after X number of times of having it just to please, it just doesn't pass anymore. It's just too "wrong", too unpleasant.

                          How to solve this problem? I don't know. Information is power.

                          She won't talk about sex. But she talks about other things. You can learn about a person talking about something else. If you understand how she thinks, in general, you can extrapolate to guess how she thinks about sex. Do you talk to her about her interests? About things that make her talkative? If all conversation if about superficial things, one doesn't really learn about his/her partner. So, if you can't talk about sex, talk about other things. Talk about her passions. Talk about things that interest her. Learn about her. Rekindle the relationship. Reinvent it, by creating new paths of closeness, new complicity.

                          Another approach is to make yourself desirable. Again, don't debug. Write a new routine. Be surprising, be new.

                          What I have in the back of my mind is an interesting fact. Both men and women who have gone out of sex with their partners, may still be hot as hell with a different partner.

                          It's desire coming from the novelty, from the surprising.

                          It demands patient and, mainly, creativity. Worth a try? Only you know.

                          I wish you good luck.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by raindancer View Post
                            At first sight, one wants to agree with you. However, it goes against findings in neuroscience. We don't make decisions based on reason. Men and women make decisions that are emotional. That's how we make decisions. You can reason as much as you wish, but the moment you have to make a decision, your emotions will dictate it. Don't believe me. Research about the matter.
                            I recall reading about Damasio's work (though I will admit that I have not read any of his authored materials) but you overstate his conclusions. While emotions have a role to play . . . even a significant role to play . . . in decision making, reason and rationality also contribute significantly in the process. I also believe that when people experience the behaviors of others, even by reading posts on this site, it affects the emotional side of their decision making as well. Would/should analysis is certainly helpful as a forensic tool so that others can alter their behaviors or new information can be applied to a new relationship.

                            My SO and her ex-husband did this dance for almost 20 years. B should be able to figure out what I need so why tell him. When B doesn't or can't or won't or simply looses the desire to do so, another marriage ends in divorce. Was the emotional pain of the divorce worth the cost of waiting for B to figure it out? Worse (in my view) because of children, grandchildren, finances or plain inertia, two bitter people coexist because neither would take the steps needed to fix things. I simply reject that married life has to follow this insanity even though it often does.

                            I also question, in the purely emotional world, why A would allow the reset or the new routine. After all, she feels violated by B's advances and doesn't wish to deal with sex as a topic of discussion. She has shut down. More than likely, B has found another outlet for his sexuality. Is that what A wanted or intended? It seems that a trip to the marriage counselor to learn communication skills is a better use of emotional resources.

                            Originally posted by raindancer View Post
                            How can we set blame, when we know how we make decisions? Looking at it coolly, as the outsider, we see the problem as a problem of communication. But the reason communication isn't working, is because the course of action from both A and B are being decided emotionally. And that is true for both men and women.
                            Rather than blame, I look at it as an assignment of responsibility. Both A and B are responsible for their actions and inaction. B should be more perceptive and A more communicative. Will communication work every time? Of course not. But it will work for some.


                            Originally posted by raindancer View Post
                            you have your mind set on what marriage should be. Textbook-wise, OK. But look around yourself. How many of these perfect marriages are there? And anyway, would this thread exist at all, should all marriages be like this?
                            I do indeed. There are not a lot of perfect marriages out there. However, when people come for advice, I for one would like both partners to strive for a better marriage. Some can't be saved . . . probably most. And I concede that the reason is because we are crappy decision makers when it comes to marriage. Too few of us, myself included, had a good idea of what we needed and wanted from a partner in our youth. The decision for A and B to get married was no doubt completely emotional and based upon characteristics that had nothing to do with long term happiness. These people need a skill set to keep them together.

                            Originally posted by raindancer View Post
                            You go on to say what people should do, or should have done. Well, they didn't do it. I believe when they say they've tried. It didn't happen.

                            What should they do? Only they know... no, they don't really know.
                            On this we agree. I don't generally believe that couples know how to communicate. I am a lawyer and didn't have relationship communication skills until I learned them in therapy. Couples usually communicate by recrimination and defensiveness. No one listens. However, I think relationship communication can be effectively taught.

                            Originally posted by raindancer View Post
                            I give an example from another thread. A loving couple, with very open dialogue, super communication going on, has the following problem: C wants more sexual experiences. D wants exclusive relationship. D understands C and they talk openly about options. But D is jealous and can't just accept C having sex with other people.

                            They've talked! But there is a real difference in expectations and emotions are involved (jealousy).
                            Interestingly, I believe that communication has and will work in that example. Before they got married, the couple communicated their desires. She wanted to settle down in a monogamous relationship and he wanted to have sex with other women. They will probably split up. But they went through a very rational process and she will make a very rational decision. Communication will not keep mismatched couples together . . . hopefully in this case it will permit them both to find their way separately.
                            Originally posted by raindancer View Post
                            I suggested a course of action in my second post. B should use whatever opportunity that arises for sex, may it be in two months, to give A something unexpected. Something very good. ********************************

                            Happy people want to give back. Happy people are generous. A happy A would want to go back.
                            Your suggestion was brilliant as I think that you are as well. No one has all of the answers. But your plan can keep happy people happy and may well provide the tools for B to work his or her way out of the conundrum. I plan to use your suggestion as another tool in my toolbox.
                            "The only consistent feature of all of your dissatisfying relationships is you." Despair.com "Dysfunction"

                            Comment


                            • This thread may set a record for the most long.... posts. I've been reading it with interest. I won't comment on the subject because my feelings/beliefs are radical different from those expressed.
                              [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                              Not thinking about anything is Zen. Once you know this, walking, sitting, or lying down, everything you do is Zen.
                              ― Bodhidharma

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by chaya View Post
                                This thread may set a record for the most long.... posts. I've been reading it with interest. I won't comment on the subject because my feelings/beliefs are radical different from those expressed.
                                Please do. It is so important to hear from all different views. There is no one right way when it comes to matters like these.
                                Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Kris Kristofferson and Fred Foster (sung by Janis Joplin)

                                Comment

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