[Acesup]

I'm sure I will get all kinds of hate and I'll sound like a woman hater which I am not. I love women. But I've seriously struggled with this dilemma much of my life and its causes me so much anger and confusion and struggle with who I am versus who I should be. But as a guy it feels like from my life experiences that while I've heard women all along say they want a good man and a nice man who treats them as an equal and treats them with respect and has a job and wants to settle down and get married and have kids and do the right thing and fix things around the house and take care of them and help with chores and kids and all that, and I've heard women complaining about how awful guys treat them (and men do treat women awful way too much no doubt) what has angered and confused and bothered me so much is what I have seen and experienced is that the guys who try to be a good guy and do the right thing and do what women say they want from them, that behavior doesn't get reinforced or rewarded. Those guys get friend zoned or taken advantage of by women who think they can use them for money or just walk all over them. Those guys end up listening to women complain about how there are no good guys out there because those women keep feeding their bad boy complexes and dating and being attracted to and rewarding guys who act the exact opposite of how they claim they want a man to treat them, and then the women get treated badly and end up shocked that bad boy actually turned out to be bad and they complain to the good guy they friend zoned about how there are no good guys out there.

Thats an oversimplification but you get the idea.

I tried dating a girl in high school who literally told me she needed a man who would "put her in her place" or else she would just walk all over them. And I was just baffled. Like what am I supposed to say to that, smack her and say go make me a sandwich? Like is that what does it for you, that what you think a real man is? What are we in 1952? I don't want a woman who has to be put in her place and kept in her place or else she will walk all over me. I want a woman who voluntarily chooses her place right next to me as my partner and equal and doesn't walk all over me because she doesn't want to. I shouldn't have to enforce that and force a woman into her place to be seen as a man by a woman and I shouldn't be punished and seen as less attractive because I'm not an abusive *******. Like seriously what it up with that attitude.

In college there was a girl who I had known since we were kids. We were at different colleges but I reconnected with her and next thing I know she is calling me telling me she couldn't stop thinking about me and wants to come see me for the weekend but she doesn't want to sleep together right away. So I respected that and spent an excruciatingly difficult night in a hotel room with her hornier than hell but respecting what she kept saying was her wishes to not sleep together right away and build a relationship and wait. I respected what she was literally saying to my face. She goes back to college and a week later now she's telling me she only sees me as a friend and she starts dating some frat boy who does Special K. And I literally have her calling me complaining about how awful her sex is with this frat boy because he's whacked out in a K hole. That was so far beyond insulting to me. Needless to say I never spoke to her again after that.

After college I lived with a woman for four years. She wanted to go back to college and finish so I stepped up and covered all the living expenses so she did not have to work and could go to school and kept us unmarried (thank god it would turn out later) so my income wouldn't screw up her scholarships. Like that is what you are supposed to do for your partner, step up and help them fulfill their dreams too. What else was I supposed to do? Tell her no you gotta pay your own way I'm not gonna have your back? But the last semester she goes to study abroad in Wales. How does she repay me once she was finishing college and didn't need me anymore, she cheats on me while studying abroad, comes home, tells me and breaks up with me and walks away with no consequences with her college degree and me having helped her get there.

Here is where it gets crazy. I was so messed up from her cheating on me and having been repeatedly penalized and taken advantage of for being a nice good guy and so sick of seeing bad boys gets their behavior reinforced and rewarded that I basically self medicated with girls after that and intentionally played the stereotype of a bad boy. It started as a joke, saying literally Ok you want a selfish guy who only cares about having sex with you, I'll give you that. And it worked. And it kept working. A lot. Like just wanting nothing from women but sex and being totally up front and uncaring about it led to almost 10 years in swinging and BDSM lifestyle scenes and being the other guy for a lot of couples that wanted to try another guy in a threesome, and the other guy for women in a lot of open relationships. And even within those open relationships those women were still sort of cheating with me and taking advantage of the rules they negotiated with their husbands because usually they weren't supposed to play with me by themselves and they almost always did. And some told me it was literally the thrill of cheating and doing something bad that made it hot for them. So after years of my being the kind of man women said they wanted and getting screwed over for it, I was intentionally being as toxic and selfish as possible and women loved it and wanted me. It actually made me lose a lot of respect for women for a while to be honest.

Periodically I would pull out of it and try to date somebody normally. But I would get the your a nice guy but I just don't see you "like that" and that sent me right back into being a selfish toxic ******* that women wanted and did see "that way."

I eventually got sick of the lifestyle just because it was a lot of work and it wasn't who I was or wanted to be deep down and because frankly having a lot of sex only situations is hot in your 30s but being alone and acting like that in your 40s and 50s is pathetic. So I saw the writing on the wall in my mid 30s and snapped out of it and gave legit dating a real try again. After a couple of false starts where women again gave me the same attitude that I was good enough to be their friends if I listened to them and respected them but not good enough for them to want to sleep with, unless I only wanted to sleep with them and was just trying to be a bad boy, I found the woman who would become my wife. I fell hard for her because she genuinely acted like me being me did it for her. She acted and said she was genuinely attracted to me being me and being good to her, it did it for her or so she said. And she genuinely wanted to have a lifelong committed full relationship including sexual with just me. So I was sold. I did the right thing. I married her. I bought a house. I got a higher paying career. I had two kids. We got a dog. We settled down. I get up and take the kids to school each day and she picks them up. We share the chores. I get up early in the morning with the kids on weekends so she can sleep. I'm not beating her, or cheating on her. I respect her opinion and ask her input on things as a partner as an equal. I definitely apologize when I screw up which is often. I'm still not a great cook at all but I've learned how to make enough I can help out with that to take some burden off her. She has A LOT of boundaries in bed. She is not religious at all but she just has become increasingly inhibited sexually. She claims she has never ever liked receiving oral so she won't let me do that. But over the years she has also shut down all forms of foreplay. She claims she doesn't like me massaging or fingering her anymore, doesn't like toys claims she has never masturbated at all, doesn't like kissing with tongue, doesn't like dirty talking. Really all she likes is rough animal intercourse, just going at it hard penetration. But as much as I REALLY miss all the other stuff and have struggled with not being allowed to do all the other stuff I respect and live within her boundaries and give her what she wants and she claims she enjoys sex when we are having sex and she claims she does orgasm regularly even though I have trouble believing I somehow am magically getting her off just through penetration but she is adamant she doesn't fake it with me and I kind of believe her because it doesn't feel like over the top porn star acting orgasms it feels more physical and because I would think if she faked it to not hurt my feelings she would fake it more often. But still despite how frustrating her boundaries are I am trying my hardest to respect them and still make sex good for her.

But her sex drive has just increasingly more and more shut down which she blames on perimenopause but she claims even though she likes sex while we are doing it she doesn't think about sex or miss sex with me anymore and nothing I do turns her on until we are in the middle of sex, which I find kind of offensive actually. And she has told me several times during our angry fights that she only married me to have kids and she got what she wanted and doesn't care if we never have sex again, only to go back when she calms down and say she didn't mean it. But if she is saying it she must mean it on some level.

So once again I am literally doing everything that could be asked of me as a husband. And this is how I am being treated and seen by the woman who claimed she did like who I was and was attracted to who I was and did want to have a lifelong sexual relationship with me? Now I don't really do it for her anymore. I'm good enough for her to want me to help with the kids and pay for stuff but not good enough for her to feel anything for me sexually even though she knows the sex will be good for her when we are actually having it? Like it honestly feels like I am being friend zoned and disrespected for being a good guy again, like she got her kids and got me trapped so now she is bored with me and if I was some bad boy stereotype out there she would probably be excited and cheat on her husband with me. Which probably means she either has or is going to reward all my working so hard to be such a good supportive husband to her by cheating on me, if she hasn't already.

So honestly. What the hell is wrong with women. I'm not trying to be mean. But why do you act bored with the guys who treat you the way you say you want to be treated but reinforce the most toxic masculinity behaviors in guys. And why do you then complain to the good guys about how you got treated by the bad boys and cry that there are no good guys out there. There would be SO many more good guys treating you good if you reinforced and rewarded that behavior. Men really are like dogs in that way. I fought it, then went with what worked, then tried to be my true self and now I'm totally lost because I believed a woman who said she actually loved me and wanted me for being good to her.

And I know there have to be women out there that don't have this attitude and don't reinforce this behavior. But for gods sake where do you all live. If I can ever afford to get divorced and start my life over can one of you come find me. I would make a woman like that so incredibly happy given the chance.

[JonnyR]

I get why you’re frustrated. What you’re describing is something a lot of men run into, especially if they’ve tried to do “the right thing” and keep ending up feeling overlooked or taken for granted.

I think there are two things getting mixed together here.

First, it’s not “women” as a whole. It’s a type of woman, often with unresolved stuff from her past, who is unconsciously drawn to familiar emotional patterns. Chaos feels normal. Intensity gets mistaken for chemistry. That doesn’t mean those patterns are healthy, and it doesn’t mean all women want that. It does mean that if you keep running into the same dynamic, you’re probably fishing in the same waters and choosing a similar type over and over again.

Second—and this part is harder to hear—there’s likely something in how you’re showing up that reinforces the pattern.

You mentioned toxic masculinity being rewarded. What often gets rewarded isn’t toxicity itself, but traits that look like confidence: decisiveness, self-direction, not seeking approval, not bending yourself into whatever shape you think will keep someone happy. A lot of so-called “bad boy” attraction is really about a man who feels centered in himself and isn’t afraid to lose someone if it means betraying who he is.

Pickup culture exaggerates this and packages it poorly, but one core insight is actually useful: attraction grows when a man challenges, leads, and stands his ground. Not by being cruel or dismissive, but by being internally solid. If you’re overly accommodating, conflict-avoidant, or trying to earn affection by being agreeable, it can quietly signal that you don’t fully value yourself. That kills attraction fast, even if you’re kind and well-intentioned.

There’s also a difference between being a good partner and being a desirable one. Esther Perel talks about how love and desire don’t always run on the same fuel. Safety, reliability, and emotional support matter—but they don’t replace presence, polarity, playfulness, and edge. If you only show up as the steady, understanding guy, you may be loved in theory but not felt in the gut.

None of this means you should become someone you’re not. It means you may need to stop abandoning parts of yourself in the name of being “good.” Being respectful doesn’t require being passive. Being kind doesn’t require self-erasure.

A man who’s solid in himself:

• knows what he wants and says it plainly
• has boundaries and enforces them calmly
• doesn’t chase validation
• is willing to walk away if the dynamic isn’t right

That’s not arrogance. That’s self-respect.

You’re right about one thing at the end of your post: being true to yourself is the key. But that’s not just an idea—it’s a practice. It might mean therapy. It might mean looking honestly at why you’re drawn to certain women. It might mean tolerating discomfort instead of smoothing things over. Growth usually costs something.

A man’s man doesn’t try to manage how he’s perceived. He acts from his own values, treats people well, and accepts that not everyone will like him. Ironically, that’s often when attraction shows up in healthier forms.

The goal isn’t to win women. It’s to become congruent, grounded, and whole. The right women respond to that. The wrong ones fall away. And that’s a feature, not a bug.

[Maggiemoo]

There is a difference between a nice guy and a good guy. Some women do like the bad boy but it's unhealthy. What is attractive is assertiveness and confidence. Being self assured, even if it's faked is what women like. Your ability to make decisions is a reflection of your ability to protect and provide.

[atskitty2]

I agree with the above comments and wanted to add a bit.

For a lot of women, especially when they're younger, it's a matter of lower self-esteem, or just not really understanding what they want. Attention from men is good, and there can be some confusion about what a "strong man" looks like, as opposed to the "pushover". Commonly, it's a choice of one extreme or the other, which it seems like you very intentionally bounced from.

Boundaries! It is so important in relationships for both parties to have their own boundaries and maintain those, and expect respect of those boundaries. In your example of the girl that essentially used you to get through college, those are boundaries that should never have been dropped. She should have been paying her way. She had no respect for you.

In the case of your wife, she does have some age-related changes, but also, it sounds like her sexual preferences have changed over time as well. It could be that many other changes in her perspective have evolved over the years, and you two need to communicate. We all change over time, and that's a good thing.

I think these ideas and questions you have are very common, and it's a point I've heard guys make since I was in high school in the 80s. We'll probably never know all the reasons why people do the things they do. What I do know is that boundaries, respect and communication are foundational to all relationships, not just sexual.