[cocoa]

I've noticed that there's a tendency to judge women (and men in some cases) as insecure depending on whether they are assertive or "confident", assuming that confidence is something immediately visible in someone's demeanor or appearance. As a result, if you're a little more subdued or accommodating, that's a sign of a lack of confidence or reflects uncertainty.

Any thoughts?

[Mes T]

Here's what I know from my own experience. My best friend and I spent two years going out and meeting people in Korea, usually together. She was always quite "assertive" and a bit in-your-face and quite loud, when at some social event where we had to mingle with strangers. I on the other hand was always reserved compared to her, spending a lot of my time kind of standing/sitting in one place and waiting for people to come to me.

And every single time we were out, people found me and talked to me but avoided her.

So I think yes confidence is important, but... what IS confidence? I don't think it's synonymous with "assertiveness." Maybe someone can seem subdued yet confident at the same time. And another person can be so assertive that it's a sign they're making up for a LACK of confidence.

Meh.

[cocoa]

Here's what I know from my own experience. My best friend and I spent two years going out and meeting people in Korea, usually together. She was always quite "assertive" and a bit in-your-face and quite loud, when at some social event where we had to mingle with strangers. I on the other hand was always reserved compared to her, spending a lot of my time kind of standing/sitting in one place and waiting for people to come to me.

And every single time we were out, people found me and talked to me but avoided her.

So I think yes confidence is important, but... what IS confidence? I don't think it's synonymous with "assertiveness." Maybe someone can seem subdued yet confident at the same time. And another person can be so assertive that it's a sign they're making up for a LACK of confidence.

Meh.

Of course, you're right but that's in Korea, not the US. In the US, confidence is judged by how assertive and visibly confident you appear to be. That's the problem.

[Mes T]

No no sorry, this was all Western people. Western people (mostly American) getting together and hanging out overseas. I just mentioned that it was in Korea because that was my latest experience. This has always been the case for me, with Western people.

I really don't think "assertive" is the right word. What do you mean "visibly" confident?

[cocoa]

I really don't think "assertive" is the right word. What do you mean "visibly" confident?

This means, if you're not projecting an image of confidence so it is evident to anyone looking on, then there's the belief that you're not as confident or secure.

[Mes T]

Yes but I'm asking what IS visible confidence? Is confidence talking really loudly? Is it walking up to strangers? Is it being very talkative in general? What is it exactly, in your opinion?

(Jeez I am just having some major communication issues today. My brain must be fried from watching too much TV.)

[cocoa]

Yes but I'm asking what IS visible confidence? Is confidence talking really loudly? Is it walking up to strangers? Is it being very talkative in general? What is it exactly, in your opinion?

The examples you mention are considered typical examples of "visible" confidence.

[Mes T]

I don't think that has anything to do with confidence. It sometimes goes hand-in-hand, but sometimes not. Confidence can come in many different forms. You can be quiet yet exude it somehow.

[cocoa]

I don't think that has anything to do with confidence. It sometimes goes hand-in-hand, but sometimes not. Confidence can come in many different forms. You can be quiet yet exude it somehow.

That's my point.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

Independent in my opinion is someone whom knows what they want, enjoys their own space, has visions and goals and goes for it...

To be independent, yes I believe you have to be assertive... (know what you want)...

I think confidence is a completely different issue because you can be confident (believe) in alot of things, yet in-secure about other things and not be confident for instance in your looks, yet you are in your job.

So I guess an assertive person can therefore, project confidence even if they are not totally confident about everything in life...

Interesting thoughts there cocoa.