[atskitty2]

I don't know why things are so messed up-I really don't. During my dating "career" it was a drag, daily, to try to navigate the territories of dating. I spent a fair amount of time just not even trying to meet anyone.

As for her "jerking around" the guy she met: It was a very intentional effort to confuse him about what she wants/is looking for, to get something out of him (nice dinners) and sort of bend him - make sure he was going to "take my ****". I didn't ask why - this obviously comes from a place of bitterness and I really didn't want to get into that sort of conversation. I'm a huge advocate for not dating soon after divorces, for this very reason.

Don't bash me for this, as it's just a theory and I'm not the first to say it, but at times, I think *some* women are resentful of their responsibilities and expected place in society now. As Alison H. is saying, I think most of us value our independence and our ability to choose the kind of life we want for ourselves. But, many women seem to resent that expectation, and hate having to do all the things we do. I hear so many say, "I don't want to have to work. If my man made enough money, I'd quit today." So, I think there's some misplaced resentment toward men for some women.

I think this is a lot to unpack here, but it's an interesting discussion. That word "protector" is one that jumps out at me, much more than provider. For me, that's more important. I think the respect left my marriage when my ex-husband's family member came onto me, propositioned me and when I told my husband, his response was little more than a shoulder shrug and essentially blaming me. I needed him to stick up for me, but instead, I got blamed.

[JonnyR]

Wow, that's some seriously great insight! Thanks for sharing.

I have to add one more word to the list to make it a triumvirate: Gentlemen

So the big three are as follows:

Provider, protector, gentleman

I am in agreement with "protector" -- that fits a natural feminine, masculine dynamic for sure, and feels right to me. I want to be the person my significant other looks up to for leadership, guidance, protection, stability, and focus.

And yes, it seems that the "Tradwife" movement is a thing, with lots of women announcing -- proudly! -- that they want to go back towards a traditional "kept" lifestyle where they stay at home, the man provides, and they support him.

The way I feel is that as long as 2 people are ok with a situation and have consented to it enthusiastically, they can do whatever they want, and it's nobody's business.

So, I say, if a woman wants a glorified sugar baby/daddy relationship that extends into a marriage and children, that's ok by me.

What I don't like is the "revenge dating" that women are doing now as you talked about, as well as the manipulation of men to bend to their will.

Here's a theory, tell me what you think:

It's almost as if women are resentful as you say in a way that makes them purposefully want to control and dictate things (despite it being outside of their nature most of the time) -- almost as if to say:

"Ok, f-you, you want me to go out and work, and lead, and take on the world, then I'll show you..." and they just take it way too far to the point to where they've forgotten their roots and true feminine energies.

[atskitty2]

I do mostly agree to your idea here. Your phrasing of this, however, makes it sound intentional, as if women have a real awareness of the malice in these decisions. I think it's rooted in something a lot less...mean-spirited than that. I think many of us are just exhausted. I think, even in that, it isn't as simple as just that. It's much more nuanced, and multi-factorial. That exhaustion comes out of something that we are somewhat responsible for-the way we allow the man in our lives to sit by and have little participation in the management of our lives together. Whether that's raising the kids, being active in the management of a household, more so than just contributing the bulk of financing. And that goes back even further, to the selection of a partner in the first place. All that breeds the bitterness that I see in so many women I know, from my own sister, to friends, to coworkers. So, while I think there are women, like my coworker, that have an awareness of their mal-intent, they don't really understand the why, or hardly give a dang that this is wildly unhealthy for themselves, or the building of a new relationship.

And I'm curious-what are the roots and feminine energies that you're referencing here?

I think we've forced ourselves into an arena where our strengths are pushed down, because we are forcing ourselves to wear so many hats. We can't do it all. Nobody can. Well, Ok, most of us can't. Men can't either. Most of us (women) are doers. We love to get **** done, and most of us will just do it ourselves, rather than explain to him how to do it. I know many women who make the physician appointments for the husbands, take him to the appointments, get their meds, remind them to take them... on and on and on. Is that an adult in a partnership? Doesn't seem like it to me? These men don't take responsibility for their own health, so, no, they certainly don't have the presence of mind to throw a load of laundry in when it's obviously over-flowing, or that sink of dishes, or taking initiative to plan half the meals for the week. And again, not laying blame on men 100% here either. Wives often enable this behavior.

So, I think some clarification on this sort of craziness is important too. For men like you, who seem to be mindful, independent, and self-sufficient, you don't seem to realize how child-like and dependent many men are. My partner included in that population. He can't really understand the stories I've told him of men I've dated, or my marriage. So, we all joke about replacing the toilet paper roll, but it truly is a lot deeper than that. My partner lived on his own a long time, took care of all his business. Many men never have, and seem to have no idea how to even do that.

For so many of us, essentially, there's a man in our life that does anything that's asked of him, but needs prompting to complete his responsibility, and otherwise is just a passive presence in the home. No initiative to do anything in, around or about the home. Won't even clean up after himself. If we have to do it all, oversee it all, and be responsible for everything - even another person - what do we really need, or want, in having a husband (partner)? It's just more work than being alone! We have to work outside the home, 40+ hours a week, then go home, do all the shopping, cooking, cleaning, bills, upkeep on the home, planning, budgeting, etc, etc...all while maintaining our looks and wellness, being an exciting intimate partner, and keeping the social calender engaging and appropriately interactive. Women are exhausted. We're tired of carrying the weight of a family on our shoulders, when there's supposed to be a division of labor within the household. No teamwork...we have to lead and do it all too.

Men do a fair bit of revenge dating as well. In my 40s there were plenty of men I met that were back to the usery and manipulation tactics of their college days, when the sexual predation was common and accepted among their peer group. "I did x, y, z and she still cheated, so I'ma fnck 'em all"...

Have you heard the saying, "hurt people hurt people". This sums up just about all this garbage that we do to each other in romantic relationships, or in not-yet-romantic relationships. There's so much bitterness on both sides, and then people just carry that on, rather than heal and get some perspective and self-awareness prior to entering another relationship.

[jns]

I do mostly agree to your idea here. Your phrasing of this, however, makes it sound intentional, as if women have a real awareness of the malice in these decisions. I think it's rooted in something a lot less...mean-spirited than that. I think many of us are just exhausted. I think, even in that, it isn't as simple as just that. It's much more nuanced, and multi-factorial. That exhaustion comes out of something that we are somewhat responsible for-the way we allow the man in our lives to sit by and have little participation in the management of our lives together. Whether that's raising the kids, being active in the management of a household, more so than just contributing the bulk of financing. And that goes back even further, to the selection of a partner in the first place. All that breeds the bitterness that I see in so many women I know, from my own sister, to friends, to coworkers. So, while I think there are women, like my coworker, that have an awareness of their mal-intent, they don't really understand the why, or hardly give a dang that this is wildly unhealthy for themselves, or the building of a new relationship.

And I'm curious-what are the roots and feminine energies that you're referencing here?

I think we've forced ourselves into an arena where our strengths are pushed down, because we are forcing ourselves to wear so many hats. We can't do it all. Nobody can. Well, Ok, most of us can't. Men can't either. Most of us (women) are doers. We love to get **** done, and most of us will just do it ourselves, rather than explain to him how to do it. I know many women who make the physician appointments for the husbands, take him to the appointments, get their meds, remind them to take them... on and on and on. Is that an adult in a partnership? Doesn't seem like it to me? These men don't take responsibility for their own health, so, no, they certainly don't have the presence of mind to throw a load of laundry in when it's obviously over-flowing, or that sink of dishes, or taking initiative to plan half the meals for the week. And again, not laying blame on men 100% here either. Wives often enable this behavior.

So, I think some clarification on this sort of craziness is important too. For men like you, who seem to be mindful, independent, and self-sufficient, you don't seem to realize how child-like and dependent many men are. My partner included in that population. He can't really understand the stories I've told him of men I've dated, or my marriage. So, we all joke about replacing the toilet paper roll, but it truly is a lot deeper than that. My partner lived on his own a long time, took care of all his business. Many men never have, and seem to have no idea how to even do that.

For so many of us, essentially, there's a man in our life that does anything that's asked of him, but needs prompting to complete his responsibility, and otherwise is just a passive presence in the home. No initiative to do anything in, around or about the home. Won't even clean up after himself. If we have to do it all, oversee it all, and be responsible for everything - even another person - what do we really need, or want, in having a husband (partner)? It's just more work than being alone! We have to work outside the home, 40+ hours a week, then go home, do all the shopping, cooking, cleaning, bills, upkeep on the home, planning, budgeting, etc, etc...all while maintaining our looks and wellness, being an exciting intimate partner, and keeping the social calender engaging and appropriately interactive. Women are exhausted. We're tired of carrying the weight of a family on our shoulders, when there's supposed to be a division of labor within the household. No teamwork...we have to lead and do it all too.

Men do a fair bit of revenge dating as well. In my 40s there were plenty of men I met that were back to the usery and manipulation tactics of their college days, when the sexual predation was common and accepted among their peer group. "I did x, y, z and she still cheated, so I'ma fnck 'em all"...

Have you heard the saying, "hurt people hurt people". This sums up just about all this garbage that we do to each other in romantic relationships, or in not-yet-romantic relationships. There's so much bitterness on both sides, and then people just carry that on, rather than heal and get some perspective and self-awareness prior to entering another relationship.

I think a lot of guys are used to mom taking care of many things without complaint and then they get married. The wife now becomes a second mom to do all of those things.

My wife does not usually replace the toilet paper roll. She will take the old one off and leave the holder on the bathroom sink. I get a new roll of toilet paper and put it on. I also added a second toilet paper roll holder a bit below the first one. That way there is usually a backup but I have came back after being away a bit and saw both holders almost empty.

I am also the one making the medical appointments and taking my wife to them most of the time. Getting her to take meds on a regular basis sometimes seems futile. We split shopping and cooking. She does most of the cleaning. Bills, budgeting and planning are my responsibility. We split the upkeep on the home. I usually do the bigger things and she does the more continuous smaller things.

My income from my job afforded saving for retirement along with a stipend for her. It also came with a good pension and medical that continued after retirement. Therefore, when arthritis made it so she no longer wanted to work, I was able to replace her take home pay when including about $500 a month in social security. She goes to the temple quite often.

I have seen guys take advantage of their significant others quite often but it seems to be less among those who have long term relationships.

[Alison H.]

Have you heard the saying, "hurt people hurt people". This sums up just about all this garbage that we do to each other in romantic relationships, or in not-yet-romantic relationships. There's so much bitterness on both sides, and then people just carry that on, rather than heal and get some perspective and self-awareness prior to entering another relationship.

That is so true and I think a lot of the time, it's the root of those behaviors.

I think too, especially for those who leave one relationship and go straight into another, they carry that bitterness/resentment/whatever else with them instead of taking the time to really examine things and become more self-aware. It's almost like a domino effect at that point: they carry those behaviors from one relationship, the immediate next relationship struggles/fails, they then carry it from both previous relationships to the next... lather rinse repeat.

It's almost a pattern of self-destructiveness, in that way.

But too, I definitely agree that for many women, they're exhausted by all of it. That doesn't excuse it, but I do understand it, for sure.

But those who are seeking "providers" for a more trad-wife relationship, I think it's hard to have it both ways. To be provided for in every way, and yet still call all the shots. Like, a true partnership (and power balance) needs to be 50-50. It just does.

[JonnyR]

Lots to unpack here! I'll try and go in order.

And I'm curious-what are the roots and feminine energies that you're referencing here?

atskitty2 --> What I meant by this is that once a woman goes down that road - whether knowingly or not - of "revenge" anything, and dictating terms, she's lost her true center.

Most women put on a mask each day -- it's a masculine mask, one they have to don because the world requires it. So they do it, but it's not their preference, intention or comfort. They have to do it because a lot of aspects are male-dominated and require masculine energy -- for example to be a leader or manager, in order to negotiate, or other more masculine "provider" type behaviors.

So, what I am getting at is that the true nature of most of these women is more gentle, feminine, supportive, kind, caring, and empathetic.

As they go through their "revenge" periods, or just morphing from one bad relationship to another and bringing the baggage, they are getting further and further way from their true selves -- thus becoming more and more distant, angry, incongruent and resentful, creating a vicious cycle.

A lot of women have told me that they would relinquish these thoughts, behaviors, and "armor/facade" that they wear if they found a man they could fully trust and surrender to.

If they could trust in his leadership, his security and his ability to take control -- not in an abusive way, but in a kind, caring and masculine way.

So, both sexes aren't getting what they want when these dynamics are reversed -- however they got there.

I also tend to agree with jns -- most men have been pampered, provided for and coddled by their own mothers, which in turn makes them almost totally incapable of knowing how, or being able to take care of themselves.

I think this is a disconnect for me.

I am not like that -- I'm the guy that gets the SH*T done, I don't wait for anyone to do it for me, I take action and am usually the one inspiring and nudging others to do the right stuff in their own lives.

I am disciplined, conscientious, forward-thinking, anticipatory, and always aware of my surroundings -- i.e even when I was a child, I would wipe the toilet rim after I peed because there would be some splashes and I thought that would be rude to whoever's house I was at.

Nobody ever told me to do that...it was just something I thought through on my own, and to this day continue to do in many other ways.

So, I guess this might be the crux of the issue for me -- as a masculine man that is a true leader, provider and gentleman, there is nothing more off-putting to me than when a woman wants to control me, strip that essence away, or ironically, EXPECT me to do certain things.

I don't do them because you want me to do them.

I do them because that's who I am.

But the minute you take me for granted and don't see beyond your own short-sighted need for certainty, we run into problems.

I tend to do best with truly feminine women -- the ones that are almost weird, quirky, or flutter about like butterflies...

Those women don't really "expect" anything, and they certainly don't demand anything - they still retain standards and aren't wallflowers, but they come from a place of appreciation, acknowledgment, and acceptance.

I guess too - they aren't jaded...

As a true masculine man, I respond immediately when a woman really sees me — not for what I can provide, but for who I am and how I make her feel just by being myself.

Thats where we're truly going wrong here I think.

Ladies, if you're listening/reading, take this to heart.

[Maggiemoo]

Done with dating. I'm enjoying having casual sex with men slightly younger than me and more attractive than I'm used to. I'm a bit of a size queen now a day's and it's something I've been exploring. My friend and person I live with is newly single and so we are going through it together. It's alot of fun and we both like different things

[JonnyR]

Maggiemoo --> Quick question about being a size queen - how do you know before you actually get down to doing the deed?