[moby]

Hello All,

This is my first and perhaps only post. I am a man (sorry!) and came across your site by accident as I was doing a web search for 'Tea Bag". I cam across the term (previously unknown to me) on another bb and googled it and ended up here.

I meant to leave straight away (on learning what the term referred to) but started to read the posts and next thing, you know how it is, found myself scrolling the entire thread.

I would like to comment on the posts, and the issue under discussion. My post is a long one and I apologise in advance for its length. (And you won't often hear a man make that kind of apology.)

Firstly, I think sex, for men, is an incredibly complicated business -- one irretrievably bound up with ego, aggression and dominance-submission complexes. We are wired that way. And raised that way (culturally speaking).

Love, emotion and tenderness come into play only after the above imperatives have been sorted. Part of the maturation process in a male is coming to accept vulnerability, dependence and need as intrinsic parts of our nature. It is the 'end stage' of male development and the hardest one for us to achieve as it runs so counter to our biological and cultural programming.

We equate 'need' and 'dependence' with weakness. Secretly, we fear that the women in our lives would lose respect for us if they realised just how 'weak' we really are. So we do our best to cover it up, both to our female partners and, critically, to ourselves.

Being a male is an emotionally fraught and precariousness business -- far more so than most women ever realise. Even 'talking' is see as suspect as we may inadvertently reveal the depth of our need; part of which is our utter dependence on the women in our lives for validation.

I mentioned that acceptance of our vulnerability is an 'end stage' in male development, one that many males never achieve. But those who do find a whole new world awaits them, a world of feeling, openness and freedom, freedom to acknowledge our needs and feelings and, as part of the process, the needs and feelings of our female partners.

It is that stage of our lives where we figure out, for the first time, that simply 'cuddling' and being held is an endorphin rush all by itself and that the point of intercourse isn't the orgasmic arrival but the journey itself. In short, we probably become closer to being the partner and soul-mate our wives always yearned for.

But back to the thread-subject...

As evidence for statement that fellation is bound up with dominance-submission issues, statement, I would posit that for most males an integral part of the experience is seeing the female on her knees performing the act. Lying down in bed while the female assumes the 'control' position robs the act of much of its intensity for most males precisely because the visual aspect of submission has been taken away.

Fellatio is in some ways the last remaining signifier of male dominance in a world increasingly responsive to female needs for equality and parity. In a way, it is the stigma attached to the act that gives it its ilicit thrill (for males and some females alike), which explains why it is such a staple of pornography.

A blow-job is subversive of political correctness and sexual equality. It symbolises male sexual dominance and female compliance with this dominance. It is first and foremost a 'political' act.

Women who understand this understand also that a blow job is the key to the male psyche. It is why Jerry Hall, ex-wife of Mick Jagger, once advised women interested in keeping a mate to 'drop to your knees and give him a blow job whenever you can.' Feminists might know many things, but women like Jerry know one big thing.

I think men instinctively understand the symbolism of a blow job, which is why it is so important to them. It reaffirms something in the male psyche which, sadly I think, needs reaffirming. It represents an intense source of value and pleasure-gratification to men as it is so closely bound up with notions of status and self-affirmation.

It is why, for hetrosexual men, giving a blow-job to another male is the ultimate degradation. It confirms his weak, '' status in the hierarchy.

Women have every right to resent being expected to give blow-jobs. Those who perceive it as being symbolic of partriachal dominance are also correct. But I believe that, for most women, the real reason they dislike performing them is relatively simple -- linked to notions of hygiene, 'cleanliness', as much as objectification.

Women, gloriously, do not have the same ego-needs as men. They experience sex on a different level, one where emotion and intimacy needs predominate.

Men reach this level as part of the end-stage maturation process described. Ironically, when the ego and the penis are both beginning to flag as a result of ageing and the recognition that sex is part of a larger, more complex web of interactions than previously realised.

I look back upon my own younger days with the sort of appalled horror-shame many men feel when contemplating our testosterone-driven youth. It explains why we are over-protective of our daughters and so suspicious of younger men. We know the fuel that rushes through their veins. It's anarchy frightens us, in our new-found self-knowledge.

I personally believe that a great value of forums such as this is that it helps to educate men, about themselves as much as women. We say, read and think things on a women's forum that we could never bring ourselves to say on a men-only board.

As ever, women are the teachers and nurturers, whether they like it or not.

Women are; men become. And part of that becoming is dominating another, if only to learn the boundaries of our own personal power. Women are mostly free from this sort of imperative, and understandably find it hard to understand in others. It may be part of the reason women are so fascinated with crime stories. They are like anthropolgists on Mars, exploring the terra incognita of the male pysche.

A long way from blow-jobs? I don't think so. As mentioned, it's a very complicated issue. It's something we men have to sort out within ouselves before we can understand how women view and feel about it.

Thank you for permitting me to join in this conversation.

[moby]

Sorry for the many grammatical errors in the above. I should have previewed/edited it before posting. But it was all done in a rush.

Does this board have an 'edit' function?

[rcoreyus]

Thread is from 2007. You might want to start a new one, or post in a more active thread. I think you post is interesting, but it may not be seen here

[WildChild]

This is an old thread but I find Moby's observations interesting. I believe I've been dealing with a man who is at a sort of pivotal point and have been trying to be very patient while he sorts it out. He knows I'm always ready to back him, always here for him, without question. He has shown that he values my opinion and input but he is really stuggling against emotional attachment.

The older we get the more emotional baggage we have, some of us are more successful at carrying just the lessons, while others lug around more of the full load. I have long maintained that what we need isn't women's lib, but people's lib because patriarchy has done men as much harm as women. We need parity, not dominence of either gender. I even avoid the term "opposite sex", preferring to use the term, "complimentary gender or sex". I do think that much of what Moby makes a point of is so deeply embedded in our culture that we are often unable to distinguish it from our natures.

Certainly sexual interaction is place where we see this played out. Recent research on the brain has found that many old assumptions (or so called common knowledge) about female sexual response is completely wrong. Women's brains are in fact highly responsive to much of the same visual material that men's are, we have been trained from infancy not to recognize or respond to it. We may be a long time sorting this out, so many generations of men and women have spent lives without knowing true sexual or emotional pleasure or response. Women have been largely deprived of Any sexual pleasure for generations and generations of men have been deprived of the opportunity of knowing the true sharing of pleasure with a woman.

Speaking as a woman who has passed the half century mark, who has experinenced a variety of acts of male dominance, including physical abuse, emotional abuse and rape and who has tried to see through the bs to the pain and frustration that really drives it, I think Moby has made some good points. I hope he will make further posts.

Personally, how I feel about giving a blow job depends on how I feel about the man. There have been men I simply wouldn't do it for. Currently I enjoy it but Moby has given some insight on the dynamics of what I've been dealing with. The experience with this man varies widely, some times it is an act of dominance with him really controlling it (I would point out that this could put a newbie "off" bjs permanently) other times it is an act of fairly complete surrender on his part. In that time he is passively allowing his most vulerable body part to be loved and caressed and exposed to teeth (LOL). Really the mood of a blow job can vary widely, as can any sexual act. I am striving to deal with the relationship consciously, aware that there is more to it than sexual pleasure and knowing that in time, we will either come to a depth of understanding and sharing that will be worth the lifetime of growth and struggle that we have each had or we will we come to a point that we will go our separate ways. But I think we will both be deeper, more whole people than we were when we first came together.

[moby]

Wild Child, you make a good point about the variousness of fellatio --from an act of dominance to one of surrender. It sounds as if your partner is responding to your patient guidance.

Assuming the passive role in sex is enormously threatening to a male as it rouses ever-present fears of gayness and homosexuality. This (homophobic panic) is another fear women are gloriously free of. Women just relax and go with the flow. Men must always feel they are steering the boat -- for fear that otherwise the boat is steering them.

Doubts over our masculinity (as masculinity is defined in Western culture) is a constant source of stress and tension for males. I don't think I have ever met a woman who worried over her 'femaleness', but I've met countless men who worried over whether ordering a certain beverage or liking a certain colour indicated a girl-streak in their make-up.

The extent of such paranoia would be laughable if not for the consequences.

Years ago I was watching a film in which a brother and sister were playing dress-up. The boy dressed the girl in his clothes and they both admired how 'cute' she looked in the mirror.

Then the girl turned to her brother and suggested he dress up in her clothes. A look of sheer terror passes over the boy's face and he vehemently refuses. The girl is baffled at his panic, failing to understand that her innocent proposal struck straight to the core of the boy's precarious masculinity. And masculinity is always precarious, always in a state of flux, for ever becoming and never quite achieving.

Women, absolutely secure in their femaleness, mostly have no conception of how deeply the fear of emasculation runs in men. It is why we bristle when our wives or girlfriends question our expertise with the barbeque or understanding of what goes on beneath the hood of a car. We perceive such criticism as an oblique reference to our lack of 'real' manhood -- to the bafflement of our wives and girlfriends.

Tragically, masculinity in Western culture is bound up with such trivial externalities. Until men locate the male within we will always seek external approval for our masculinity. A woman on her knees giving a blow job is one such signifier.

Pathetic? Absolutely. True? Unfortunately.

[Hopeless Dork]

Moby, your post was very insightful and I think helped me peek a bit into my own psyche as well. (Thats a dark scary place btw lol). I absolutely love going down on my boyfriend. I do it with as much passion and eagerness as when we are having sex, and I love when we have sex I would say I perform fellatio to completion on him more than we have actual intercourse and even though I am a very sexual person, orgasm fairly easy etc.. I find pleasing him equally gratifying to my own orgasm.

I am satisfied to the pit of my stomach after he orgasms in my mouth ( No pun intended, seriously) My heart soars in the moments right after as I stay on my needs and rest my head in his lap. I can't understand the emotional hole it fills for me, but there is really something that it does for me that I can't wrap my head around.

I've never been this way with any other guy, but I also haven't been with another guys for a long time before him. I am very attracted to him, more so than probably anyone I have ever dated, that could play a role I am sure. But after reading your post I wonder if it is the submissive nature of the act that I am finding so mentally satisfying. I mean it gives me so much physical pleasure, I get no greater turn on than when I have him in my mouth.

But it does seem weird to me, especially after reading so many posts of women that do not care for the act, that I CRAVE this with him. I go to bed thinking about the last occurance and fantasise about it through-out my day. Maybe I've just developed some kind of fetish (with him only of course) for the act or maybe its something deeper.

But your post did give me a lot to think about.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

moved to new thread as this one commenced 2007, good topic.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

WC, as requested, bringing up thread.

[moby]

HD, From your description, I think you're probably right -- that it is the submissive nature of the act that so gratifies so. It seems you and your boyfriend have a great deal of pleasureable exploration ahead of you

There are some excellent d/s (dominant/submissive) forums on the net that might help you to discover more about this aspect of your sexuality.

BTW it's not unusual to find such feelings, and relationships, restricted to one person (your current boyfriend) rather than being a generalised response.

[WildChild]

Women certainly aren't free of concern or insecurity over their femininity, take a look at some of the threads on breast size, weight, cutting, appearance, clothing, unwillingness to be seen naked... the list goes on and on. It may take a different form but women have plenty of concerns over their desirablity, attractiveness and worthiness.

The inabilty to relax and simply feel sexually probably accounts for a great deal the trouble many women have achieving orgasm.

The attitudes and social norms we have had for generations are not (and have not ) serving us well sexually and that is really coming to the fore as women are coming more and more to stand on their own and are no long completely dependant on men financially. As we have seen fewer extended families, more mobility, and less interpersonal connection within our communities, the demands and expectations we have of our partners have changed. Relationships are no longer limited to marriage. Sex is no longer either within marriage or completely illicit. Marriages are no longer based on family relations, financial considerations of the families or to cement political alliances. We expect our partners to entertain us, to be supportive in new ways, to be lovers. Women no longer have to tollerate abuse because they now have options, we are no longer property - at least not in significant parts of the world. With the internet, TV and other high speed communication, women in areas that are becoming increasingly aware that there are women with options, who are doing things unimagined by their more restricted sisters.

This has put both women and men into some difficulty in redefining their roles, expectations and behaviors. We are still figuring it out. This is a time of transistion in many areas. We see some elements, digging in their heels and trying to pull us back 100 years, while the rest of us work at finding what works for us. Those of us in the, say, 40 to 60 year old range, probably had the gender roles we started with growing up change.

This is going to take time and awareness to see effective change occur. We've come a long way and have a long way to go. I don't think we will find a one size fits all solution such as we've had for hundreds of years. We are redefining human relationships and sex is a huge part of that. Personally, I find it exciting, frustrating and facinating. I have the ability to sometimes take an analytical, observer's view of my life and those around me and find all the conniptions we are going through facinating, some times scary and other times amusing.

Men are losing the absolute control they had, or had the illusion of. Women can no longer receed into passivity, sexually or in other ways. Men and women are coming to understand that women can and should be dynamic sexual beings. Men are no longer content with a woman who just lays there, who simply tollerates their "needs" or "urges". Women are no longer willing to just be sexually passive tools, treated like an imbicile, blow up doll. Unfortuntately, we aren't being educated in sexual technique, how our bodies (or anyone else's) work. We are just beginning to understand women's sexuality and capacity. Many women have taken sexual licence to mean they have to act like men do (or have) sexually. It will take time for the old, no longer valid expectations to fall away; such as that men should always be more sexually agressive and experienced than women, or that women are less responsive or want sex less than men, or that women who are sexually open or adventerous are labled ho's.

We are pioneers in this. There is some reason to believe that there was a time when the social structure was more egalitarian and that women's sexuality was regarded differnently an even revered, but that was thousands of years ago. We have the potential to create a new era, where people can learn to have healthy, fun sexual relationships but we are going to have to shovel out the old stuff first!