[Wednesday L.F.]

My husband and I are doing some low-level ENM stuff. Basically I’m dating new people and he isn’t interested in that. My question though, has to do with seeing other people who have partners. One guy got angry when I asked to meet his partner, which led me to think maybe his non-monogamy wasn’t as ethical as he says—and the wife doesn’t know he’s stepping out. But every couple is different so I can’t say for sure.

How do other ENM folk deal with that? Any tips?

[JonnyR]

Wednesday L.F. This is such a great question and topic -- and even those who don't want to practice this or are afraid to break into those boundaries are curious.

So let's talk about it!

I am currently in an ENM relationship. It's on the "don't ask, don't tell" level -- so I don't think she would ever want to meet someone I was dating outside of her and I, and vice versa.

I would never get mad though if another woman WANTED to meet her...I would just explain that perhaps it wasn't the best idea for lots of reasons, but I wouldn't have a problem talking about her, showing pictures even or things like that.

The issue that I have run into is that most women simple want monogamy -- any way, any how.

Meaning, even if they want a "short term" or "FWB" relationship, they STILL want it in a monogamous setting, which I find a bit odd sometimes...

I get the ones that are looking for marriage, long term relationships or partnerships, but the short term or sex-only ones baffle me -- so perhaps that is something someone else can explain.

Regardless, while this is not something that I necessarily want to do forever, it works for me now -- with the intention that I am open and looking for my "ride or die" partner that would most likely become monogomous.

[Jetmech_229]

Jonny,
Why are the two of you in a partnership? I mean if the two of you wish to have sex with other people why have a relationship at all? Hey, I'm not putting you down or anything like that. My mind can't fathom the idea. For example, why would a married couple bring a man into their bedroom? Or even retain the idea of having an open relationship. You're allowing strangers access to the beautiful woman you call wife. I guess what I'm trying to understand is in your attempt to spice up your relationship aren't you destroying the one thing you were trying to save? I'm way too jealous or insecure, call it what you want. I made a promise before God to love, cherish, and protect my wife until death do we part. I kept my word for 35 years until God called her home. So when I hear of couples engaged in this type of behavior it's hard for me to understand I can truly say, we never discussed the idea of spicing up our marriage by committing adultery. Before everyone goes into vapor lock, I understand not everyone is a believer. But I do wish everyone could have experienced the true love and commitment that I was afforded. I promise I'm not looking down or judging anyone. Just wondering why there are so many unhappy marriages in the world today.

[JonnyR]

Jetmech_229 Welcome to the forums!

I appreciate the question.

Wednesday L.F. can comment on her own experience, but here is my take.

This is probably too nuanced and deep of a discussion for a forum thread, but I'll do my best as succinctly as possible.

• Shades of Gray: How people view and interact in relationships is very nuanced. Some people are very religious and strict, and think that anything outside of a relationship or marriage is "wrong". Others grow up in a more open lifestyle or go against their strict upbringing, and choose an open lifestyle as a result.

• Fantasy and Eroticism: We all have fantasies. It can be very erotic, or kinky, to think about or explore sexually provocative choices like an open relationship, 3-somes, or even voyeurism. And the thing is, this can and often does change as we get older and more experienced/confident. When I was younger, I was also insecure and could never think about me or my person being with someone else. Hell, when I was in my teens and 20's, the thought of my partner MASTURBATING bothered me immensely!! But as I got older, thoughts started popping into my head, and I started to actually FANTACIZE about my partner being with other men while I watched! It was shocking at first...but then I started to get really turned on by the idea. That's the thing with eroticism...you never know where it will come from or manifest. Also, don't forget about attraction...it can wax and wane in any long-term relationship. Not admitting that is also setting yourself up for failure or hurt. If you can stay ahead of it, it can deepen bonds.

• Convenience: Even if you aren't in love with one of your partners or someone you're sharing an open relationship with, it's nice to hang out with someone to do things with outside of the bedroom, without having to be committed to them. I can freely express my interest in this person and appreciate them, and love them in my own way (although it is not being "in love"), and be confident enough to also share them with others, in the same way, should they choose. Also, note that for some people being in an open relationship is a proxy for "fear" and avoidance of real intimacy and avoidant attachment styles and behaviors. They will couch the fact that they want to sleep with or date others as being "open" but really they are just purely scared of commitment. There are red flags and potential downsides to any choices we make in life.

• Love or not in love: Whether you are "in love" or just love someone as a person and human being, you can have thoughts about sharing them, or be in an open relationship. For some couples this manifests as having ground rules whereby they can have a "hall pass" on certain days of the year, or can only do things with others in the presence of their significant other, or one of many, many possible iterations. I would argue, the more intimate you are with someone, or vulnerable with them, the more you can actually share and express what you REALLY want and not be judged by them. How many times have we all shared fantasies only to be criticized or judged by someone? What if, when you told someone they not only didn't judge you but loved and cared for you even more for sharing this with them? You can be your true, authentic self....that's a rare freedom.

• Courage and Acceptance: As I said above, it takes courage to ask for what we want, and be honest about it without judgment. When folks agree to be in an ENM (Ethically non-monogamous) relationship, they are also placing equal trust in you and sharing their vulnerabilities. It's actually quite intimate and brings you closer to them knowing this.

• Two People's Business: And last but not least, as long as 2 consenting adults agree to something, I really don't think it's anyone's business outside of that relationship.

I will say that when you are DEEPLY in love, for most people it can be too much to bear to even think about your lover and the love of your life with anyone else -- and the thought would crush you or them.

The key is to understand yourself, who you are, what makes you tick, and then be honest about it.

This type of lifestyle is not for everyone, it's probably not even for some -- likely just for a few percentage of people, and there's a reason for that -- a blend of societal, ritualistic, ego, security and other issues that lend themselves to that choice just not being right for most people, and that's ok!

In the same way I don't judge anyone for their choices, I also appreciate those who allow me to enjoy mine in the same way.

[Wednesday L.F.]

Jonny,
Why are the two of you in a partnership? I mean if the two of you wish to have sex with other people why have a relationship at all? Hey, I'm not putting you down or anything like that. My mind can't fathom the idea. For example, why would a married couple bring a man into their bedroom? Or even retain the idea of having an open relationship. You're allowing strangers access to the beautiful woman you call wife. I guess what I'm trying to understand is in your attempt to spice up your relationship aren't you destroying the one thing you were trying to save? I'm way too jealous or insecure, call it what you want. I made a promise before God to love, cherish, and protect my wife until death do we part. I kept my word for 35 years until God called her home. So when I hear of couples engaged in this type of behavior it's hard for me to understand I can truly say, we never discussed the idea of spicing up our marriage by committing adultery. Before everyone goes into vapor lock, I understand not everyone is a believer. But I do wish everyone could have experienced the true love and commitment that I was afforded. I promise I'm not looking down or judging anyone. Just wondering why there are so many unhappy marriages in the world today.

Hi there,
Before I get to the specifics of your question, I need to point out a few places where you seem to have assumed incorrectly.

To my mind, “adultery” involves deceit. My husband and I do not lie to each other.
Monogamy is common in many marriages, but certainly not all. Sexual exclusivity is not at all the most important thing in a marriage—and if I may say so—your viewpoint here sounds jealous and possessive.

Hopefully a marriage is made up of two people (or more, not my business) who love, respect, admire, and adore each other. Part of that is not denying each other things that bring us happiness, joy, and pleasure. I’m not sure how a marriage can be happy if one person feels okay denying the other something that’s important to them. Not all couples have the same tastes and desires, but if your marriage is built on a strong foundation, having other partners for sex is no less reasonable than having a partner to see movies, play games, or attend a class together.

Sexual exclusivity is not the basis of my marriage. My husband is a man of unfathomable loyalty, and is not envious of an outside partner any more than he’d be envious of a vibrator or a book. After 25 years together (23 of which did involve monogamy) we know each other too well to be bothered by such things.

[MeLuvCookies]

As somebody who spent almost a decade as the single other guy in other people's open marriages and swinging relationships and the BDSM scene and all that I actually find the term ethical nonmonogamy to be not offensive exactly but kind of whitewashed BS. Its like communism. It sounds great in theory but in practice doesn't really work or exist.

I was the guy in so many other couples threesomes and at sex clubs and all kinds of crazy scenes juggling other couples supposedly open relationships. They didn't call it ethical non monogamy at the time cause this was like 2003-2011, but everybody always had their rules and boundaries they had supposedly negotiated of what was allowed and what was off limits and how they would respect each other in the marriage. I cannot remember one relationship I was involved in where they actually respected and abided by those boundaries. I can only speak from personal experience about the women since that is who I would play with but the guys were often breaking the negotiated boundaries too. I saw no evidence of any ethics being followed.

The most common boundary I saw was that the couple could only play with other people together. I was only supposed to be playing with the girl as part of a threesome and they were only supposed to play with other people as well as part of a threesome where they played together. In almost every situation where I did that with a couple the woman also played with me one on one behind her husbands back. I was a selfish 20 something so I went with it cause I got what I wanted but in retrospect there was no ethics being practiced by anybody.

And I saw so many couples that had internal issues trying to use banging other people as like a band aid and it never worked like that. You can't **** other people to get out of your own relationship and sex life problems.

So in theory if you have an incredibly strong relationship and sexual bond with your partner, 100 percent trust them and are passionately sexually in love to the point you don't need to sleep with other people but maybe you would both enjoy it as a thrill, and if you both spend a good hard time not just negotiating boundaries but actually respecting and sticking to them, then yes ethical non monogamy can work. But from experience I can tell you at least when I was in the scene that is not the type of couple I encountered. That was as much of a unicorn as the actual definition of a unicorn.

[Wednesday L.F.]

Wow. That runs counter to my RL experience and the ppl I’ve interviewed on this topic. I imagine that’s why choosing your people is so important.

Thanks for your insight.

[MeLuvCookies]

Thanks. I mean my experiences in many different aspects of the lifestyle were more than a decade ago so massive grain of salt in all that. It is more accepted now which might lead to more mature healthy couples being involved since it is not as underground now. I can just tell you my experiences as a single guy being the other guy for couples were fun but if I was the guy in those relationships I would be ****ed that I am literally giving my partner a free pass to sleep with other partners and it not be cheating if she just played by the negotiated rules and still every time the woman seemed almost compulsively to need to push and break the rules, like they got a thrill out of still cheating in a way. I'm sure the guys did it too that just wasn't what I dealt with.

I hope it has gotten better now. I don't have anything against the lifestyle as a concept, just the way I saw it being practiced.