[Acesup]

I really don't mean this to sound as chauvinistic of a question. I've just reached a crossroads in my life and marriage where I am miserable and don't want to continue like this but I'm afraid my options for the future could be even worse and I only get one shot at getting this right so I need some reality check real honest input from women to decide which way to go.

My marriage of 13 years now, its broken. Its been broken. I've tried. I feel like I have done off the work I can possibly do on my side to fix it and work on the parts of me that bother her and to compromise and meet her in the middle. She still won't make tangible effort to work on the parts of her that are destroying me. The nature of the relationship she seems to want and be happy with is not a relationship. Its roommates. Its business partners. I deserve better than that. I am worth more than that. I cannot live the rest of my life getting up every day going to a job I hate to make maximum money giving 110 percent effort as a husband for a woman that only looks at me and wants to be roommates and best friends and all she wants from me is acts of service but feels no desire or sex drive for me and doesn't even miss it enough to make any effort to fight to get it back. This dynamic is so humiliating to me it is making me hate myself so much I really am afraid if I have no hope of it ever being anything more than that for the rest of my life I will kill myself some day just out of sheer hopelessness. Who would want to live with that being the best you have to hope for, give 110 percent do everything she wants and if you are lucky maybe once a week she'll throw you a pity **** where she literally makes clear she doesn't want to and she tells you that you have no chance of getting her off and to just make it about you and get it over with. I can't tell you how much that makes me hate myself.

I get her reasons. She is tired. She is perimenopausal, probably verging into menopausal because she hasn't had a period in months. I understand the reasons. She tells me to be patient and give her grace. I've been doing that for like nine years now as I watch it slowly decline and our spark die in slow motion and I've done everything I can possibly think of to do more than my share of the work to keep our sex life alive, and she just seems annoyed by my efforts. She won't let me try anything different in bed to find something she enjoys and she keeps taking options he used to enjoy off the table to the point all she will allow now is straight to penetration with no foreplay. I'm literally forced to be boring an unsatisfying in bed and then she acts bored and unsatisfied when I know how to do better if allowed to. But her boundaries have become suffocating. And she keeps saying how tired she is and I keep taking on more and more of the burden and picking up more and more of the slack to give her more and more rest and more opportunities to fill her cup. I have no more to give. I take off as much time from work as I possibly can to get the kids by myself whenever they are out of school. I get up early with them. I watch them so she can go to yoga every saturday morning. I don't go out with friends and leave them on her. I have learned how to cook decently enough to take as much of the cooking off her hands as possible. I buy her as much gifts as I can afford. I took her away for a night to a hotel to a concert for her birthday and she still had no interest in sex and just wanted to get it over with. Like no matter what i do she is still her tired, her cup is still empty and she still feels nothing for me and it is killing me inside.

And still I would continue to be patient with all of that if she was making any effort to change it. She 100 percent angrily refuses to even ask a doctor about HRT, or any other medical options for her menopause symptoms, not just the sexual ones but her massive irritability and the messed up things she says to me when she gets angry, her night sweats, her exhaustion. She complains about them endlessly but won't take any steps to even try to address them and make them even a little better not even for herself if not for me. She absolutely refuses to go back to marriage counseling. I actually gave up our marriage counselor to become her individual therapist a few years ago and just found out she stopped seeing her too and now she won't go back to any marriage counselor, she won't go to sex therapy, she is just giving up on the relationship part of our marriage without even putting up a fight. But she isn't asking for a divorce. She is expecting me to continue to be faithful and continue to give 110 percent of the hard work part of being a husband and not get upset when all I get is a roommate effort in return.


So without further effort from her my patience is running out fast. I feel guilty as hell because I know a divorce will hurt the kids. I really really don't want that. I don't want any of this. I want to stay with her. But the marriage she wants is not a marriage and is making me miserable and it is killing me to have to choose between my kids get to be happy and I have to live the rest of my life in hell or I have a shot at actual happiness and real love and starting over but it hurts my kids. I hate myself for that.

But here is where I come to the question. I have consulted divorce attorneys. They have basically told me because of the differences in income even though she is physically capable of working more and making nearly as much as me if full time, but because of the differences in income and the kids and the length of our marriage I could be looking at paying 35 percent of my monthly salary to her in combined child support and income for the next 10 years. The child support I don't even begrudge. Like I get it for my kids if I could require it actually go for my kids. The alimony I find angering, like if I'm not good enough for you why is my money good enough for you and why should you get paid for quitting on our marriage and why should I subsidize your life while you are screwing somebody else. But regardless of the fairness of it. If I am paying 35 percent in alimony and child support and at least 30 percent, probably closer to 40 or 50 percent in today's market of my salary just to rent an apartment because of how overpriced it is now. I'm not even sure that leaves enough for utilities and food and basic survival.

It sure as hell doesn't leave much if anything to spend on dating another woman or having a relationship with another woman if I want to start over. So I am really afraid of being trapped alone for the next 10 years until I'd be in my early 60s not because I'm not attractive, not because I wouldn't be willing to find love and not because I wouldn't be willing to give 110 percent of my effort to the right woman and love her and be everything she could ever ask for in a man. But simply because I would not have the money to take her on the dates she would deserve and come to expect and buy her the kids of gifts she would expect in a relationship and definitely not have the money to buy a house and get married and settle down for at least a decade.

Like I feel like I would be at such a disadvantage no woman would be willing to take the chance to get to the point where they can see al the great things I could offer them in a relationship because they will never get past my financial disadvantage. I'm not talking about gold diggers. Pretty sure I never have to worry about attracting a gold digger even again. I am honestly asking women, if you saw a divorced man in his 50s with two kids who is nice, who has a job, who has it together in every way except his bank account, who would make every effort to listen to you and respect you and treat you as an equal and a partner, who wants nothing more than to make you happy and tries so hard to make you happy and satisfy you in bed, who is still in pretty good shape for being 50 and still capable when allowed to do what I know how to do, who doesn't cheat who doesn't hit women doesn't feel the need to control women, who is decent at cooking and getting better and has no issues sharing work load and giving you all my effort. But my one major flaw is I just have no money for grand gestures and big romantic dates and a big house and a big life and I might not for many years to come because I'm saddled paying my ex.

Like honest answer from women, would you really be attracted to that guy. Would you really give that guy a chance and look past that one major flaw and pursue a relationship with him.

I really want to believe that. If I can have hope of that I can pursue getting divorced and starting over with somebody who loves me for me and who I can make happy. I get that me and my wife are incompatible now and I can't force her to change. But I matter too and if its broken and she won't do anything to fix it I deserve somebody who will work with me when things are broken and who wants me in every way. But if no woman could look past my being broke no matter how good a man I am then I should stay married even if I'm miserable. Being in a broken marriage is better than dying alone if there is no hope of ever having a chance at love again. And duty sex is better than no hope of ever having sex again. Not by much but it is.

So I know I'll get tons of hate for asking but honestly. If she won't make an effort to change and I can't take this any more and the cost of leaving will be financially crippling for me, do I really have any hope for a new future with a woman?

[JonnyR]

Acesup

I think you’re asking women a dating question, but I’m not sure dating is really the center of this.

What I hear underneath all of this is: “If I leave, will I still be wanted?”

And after years of feeling unwanted in your marriage, I get why that question feels terrifying.

I don’t think your lack of money would make you undateable. Some women would care a lot. Some would not. That’s just reality. But being financially wounded after a divorce is not the same thing as being worthless. A decent man who shows up, communicates, parents well, works hard, and actually wants to love someone still has value.

That said, I think you’re trying to solve step ten before deciding step one.

Right now you’re comparing two imagined futures: stay and slowly die inside, or leave and maybe be alone forever. But there may be more than those two choices. There may be legal planning, therapy, separation planning, financial rebuilding, or even a hard boundary conversation before divorce.

The line that worries me most is where you said you’re afraid you may kill yourself someday out of hopelessness. That’s not something to brush past. That tells me this has moved beyond sex or marriage frustration and into real despair. Please take that seriously and talk to someone in real life, not just online.

My question is this: if you knew for a fact that another woman would date you after divorce, would you leave?

And if the answer is still complicated, then maybe the real question isn’t whether women would want you later. Maybe it’s whether you can keep living inside this marriage as it currently exists.

[Acesup]

Thanks Jonny,

Honestly yes if I knew for a fact that I could leave and afford to start my life over and have a decent life I would. If I knew I could meet another woman and give her all that I have tried to give my wife I really do think I have everything else it takes to make a woman happy and turn her on and satisfy her physically. The one thing that puts me at a competitive disadvantage against other guys would be money. And not even my actual income I make like $5,100 a month take home. But if all of that money is tied up in child support and alimony I can't shake this feeling that a woman in her 40s or 50s even if she's isn't all about money and material things, by that point if she is dating a guy in his 50s she has come to expect a certain level from a guy, being able to take trips and buy gifts and buy a house together and have a wedding together someday and if I am the best guy in every other way but can't offer that while some other guy can because he doesn't have 7-10 years of between $1,700 and $2,200 a month of alimony and child support plus at least $2,200 a month to rent a two bedroom apartment in this market so he can have visitation with his two kids. I can't shake this fear that while women might say they don't care about money given that choice I will always be at a disadvantage and they will always choose somebody else and I'll just be alone working to subsidize my es wife's life while she screws somebody new.

But yes. If I knew I could start over and date and find happiness and love and physical attraction from a woman I would 100 percent leave. No I cannot live like this anymore. I am losing my mind. I'm not sleeping. I am in hell on the verge of a breakdown and trying to hide it every second at work and every second at home and if I'm quiet and she senses my pain she knows why and she gets angry at me for being upset with her.

I am in a weird place because logically I have self confidence. If I just look at myself from the outside. I am in good shape for turning 50. I don't run marathons anymore cause of money but I totally could. I still do Spartans. I still workout and run four times a week. I'm 5-9 169 or so pounds still got all my hair. Grey in the beard but that's not a bad thing. Body fat is probably 15-20 percent neighborhood not a pro athlete but not bad for my age. Nobody ever offered me a job in porn but no woman including my wife has ever complained I wasn't big enough to get the job done or didn't know what I was doing in bed. Average size and willing to do anything a woman is into and have offered as such to my wife, with the one hard limit of other people being involved.

I have a job. We have a house and two SUVs and phones and a middle class life. The kids have what they need. I am totally involved. I'm not playing golf (I hate golf actually) or going to strip clubs and leaving her all the chores. I take the trash out. I was cooking more than half the time and getting good at it tell she made the crack at me on Memorial Day that I hardly ever make her cum then smirked at me and told me "That's OK you can still do acts of service for me" and I was so humiliated and insulted I haven't cooked for her since and we haven't had sex since going on three weeks now. She said back off and let her come to me and want it and I backed off and I'm sitting here waiting like an idiot.

But I get up with the kids early. I watch them on weekends so she can go to yoga and take them out by myself so she can get breaks and fill her cup back up. I walk the dog morning and night. I watch freaking Bravo and ID shows endlessly cause she likes them and I hate that stuff. I get stuck listening to endless Taylor Swift because she likes it. I am there to listen to her. I am there to be her rock with whatever she needs. All I ever asked is that she want me like a wife and respect me like a man and if something was getting in the way of that, like menopause, that she care enough about our marriage to make an effort and fight for it.

I think I have a lot to offer a woman. I think I am so much of what so many women are going to their therapists angry and crying wishing their husband would be like. I think I could make a woman feel very happy and lucky to have me.

But when the actual woman you are giving all this effort to gives you no effort in return and you go weeks and her attitude is still lets just get it over with I'm tired and you realize at 50 years old the best you ever have to hope for is a once a week chore bang where she literally says to you at the start that you won't get her off and she's just doing it for you and you realize you have no hope of ever experiencing giving you wife an orgasm and that you will never experience morning sex ever again because she will never ever wake up in the morning and want sex ever again for life and you will never ever experience going down on a woman again nor will you ever experience receiving oral from a woman ever again for the rest of your life and there is no hope of it getting better only worse because even though there is hope available she doesn't even care enough to try to do anything about it. Yeah no matter how much you tell yourself you are good enough when that is the reality you are facing at 50 it is difficult if not impossible to maintain any self respect or self confidence as a man. I truly hate myself right now.


So yes I want and I feel like I deserve a better future than what I am facing. But I don't know if I have any real chance of getting it because of the competitive disadvantage of being a divorced guy in my 50s with two kids part of the time probably living in whatever crappy apartment I can find paying all my money to my baby mama. Like I could see a lot of women meaning well but saying thats too much trouble let it be somebody else's problem.

And while I want to leave the torture part is I can't no matter how ready i am. Its easy for people to say just get divorced. The cheapest retainer I have found from a divorce attorney is $5,000. Do you know anybody that has $5,000 just sitting around. I don't. And she has already been clear she will be ugly in the divorce, threats she'll get a lawyer take everything. She is trying to tell me if we are getting divorced she will gets cops to remove me from my own house and bar me from being there until the divorce is settled and she will try to take the house. She is an ugly impulsive person when she is angry now.

And yes if I have nothing to look forward to or be happy for I do fully expect I might give up hope and kill myself at some point when i reach that point where I can't take it anymore and have no hope of it getting better. I don't want to do that. I want to live but I need a life worth living. If you were locked in prison for the rest of your life nobody would question your decision to kill yourself. If I am either locked in a sexless passionless humiliating marriage I can't afford to escape dying inside each day with no hope of it get better and nothing to be happy about or trapped in a lonely existence just working to pay alimony with no hope of love sex or anything to look forward to for the rest of my life, how many of you could live either of those existences for the next 30-40 years knowing full well from the outset what you face. What's the point if all it will ever be is suffering. What's the point with no hope. Its hard to be strong when there isn't a point or a payoff. I was biding my time while I saved up money but I'm looking at 12 more months minimum to save up enough for an apartment and lawyer. And if I go without a lawyer and get crushing alimony there is no point in living either.

She won't do therapy of any kind, she is being ugly and cold and vindictive on any separation or divorce and I am afraid the financial ruin will be too great and take too long to endure but yes enduring another year of this hellish marriage is too much to endure too.

All I ever wanted was to love a woman and give her my all and have her love and appreciate and want me in return. I found a girl with no red flags at the time who said she wanted all those things. I trusted her. Looks what it has done to my life.

There is nothing worse then being hopelessly locked inside a prison you don't deserve to be in but have no chance of escaping for a long time if ever and being acutely aware of it.

[JonnyR]

Acesup Reading this, what jumps out at me isn’t money. It’s that you’ve convinced yourself there are only two possible futures:

Stay and be miserable forever.

Leave and be miserable forever.

That’s a pretty brutal place to live mentally, and after years of feeling trapped, I can understand how you got there. But I don’t think those are the only two possibilities.

First, on the practical side, don’t assume divorce automatically means a $20,000 legal war.

If two people can agree on most major issues, there are low-cost mediation services, collaborative divorce processes, and even flat-fee uncontested divorce options in many states. I’m not saying that’s what will happen in your case, but before you declare yourself financially imprisoned for the next decade, it might be worth learning exactly what your options are instead of assuming the worst-case scenario is the only scenario.

Second, and I say this gently, I think you’ve started measuring your entire worth as a man through the lens of whether your wife desires you.

That’s dangerous.

Your wife’s desire matters. Your marriage matters. But they cannot be the sole source of your self-respect.

Because if they are, then every cold comment, every rejection, every bad week becomes evidence that you’re worthless.

And I don’t think you actually believe you’re worthless.

You just sound exhausted.

I was actually listening to an Esther Perel (highly recommended BTW!) podcast, and she was talking about this very issue with a couple that was not sexually compatible -- she said something powerful that resonated with me, it was along the lines of (paraphrasing here):

People think that if they work hard enough, put in enough time, resources, energy, and accomodations that, they can work through or fix any problem in a relationship -- that it's a matter of work. The truth is, sometimes it's as simple as 2 people aren't meant to be together and have incompatibilities that cannot be reconciled.

One thing I noticed is that when you describe yourself objectively, you sound like a guy with a lot to offer. Then when you describe your future, you sound like someone who’s already been sentenced.

Those two versions of you don’t match.

The other thing I’d challenge is this idea that women in their 40s and 50s are all looking for a man with a big house, fancy vacations, and disposable income.

Some are. Some aren’t. By that age, many people have their own careers, their own homes, their own scars, and their own baggage. They’re looking for companionship, stability, attraction, laughter, trust, and somebody who actually shows up.

Life is a lot messier than “rich guy wins.”

The thing that concerns me most, though, is how often your posts circle back to hopelessness.

You keep talking about prison.

You keep talking about there being no point.

You keep talking about having nothing to look forward to.

That’s not really a marriage problem anymore. That’s a despair problem.

So let me ask you something.

If tomorrow morning you found out your financial fears were only half as bad as you currently imagine, how much would that change your outlook?

And another question:

What is the smallest thing that could happen in the next 30 days that would make you feel even 10% more hopeful than you feel right now?

Because right now it feels like you’re staring 10 years into the future, and I’m wondering if the next step is actually much closer than that.

[Acesup]

Thanks Jonny,

I hope you are right in your optimism. I really do. I don't have that same optimism or hope based on the facts I'm being presented but I would gladly be wrong.

To answer your questions:

Yes I am exhausted. The level of effort and perfection I have to give in every aspect of my life from 5:50 a.m. every morning until 10 p.m. every night or else face consequences that only I suffer, nobody else they all fall on me, at work, with my kids, in my marriage, with my sex life all to get back such little effort from my wife in the relationship part of our marriage is exhausting. And its not like I get to be tired and not get to put in max effort. This is all expected of me or else I get yelled at and threatened at work because Florida is a right to work state where workers have no rights. And if I don't give maximum effort at home to eliminate every possible excuse my wife could possibly use to say she is too tired, then she will exploit whatever I failed to give maximum effort in and use that excuse to say she is too tired to be into it. And the fact that she gets to be too tired for the intimacy part of the relationship and is looking for excuses to exploit to get out of sex but I don't ever get to be too tired for the hard work part of the relationship is exhausting and makes me feel played and used and makes me resent her every time she asks me to do something I would otherwise gladly do for her. But I'm stuck because if I don't give her max effort then its all anger and fighting from her and even the checked out chore sex isn't available.

So yes I'm exhausted. But I am still giving max effort in every other part of the marriage and I am still trying hard to find any way to make sex enjoyable and fun for both of us. I'm not just giving up and saying I'm tired its just going to be nothing but a dead sex life and suck from now on until we die because we are tired. At some point you should want it more than you are tired and at some point you should make an effort to overcome tired. I know she is tired too. She works hard in all the other areas of the marriage except the intimacy. I get that. I appreciate that. I do everything I could possibly do to pick up as much slack and take as much off her plate as possible to let her refill her cup and not be tired. She'll still stay up late on her **** phone and then tell me how tired she is the next day. I've tried saying hey if you are tired at night lets schedule to meet at home for some noon time action. She says yes but never follows through, always working and the times when we have been home alone with no kids in the middle of the day she goes crazy cleaning the house I'm still the last thing on her mind. I'm the only area where there is a lack of effort and where she is too tired and that ****es me off. i deserve better than that from her. And why doesn't she want better than that with me. It's not like she's not going to enjoy it too if our sex life gets better. She's missing out too.

Yes I know I am stuck in a spiral where my sole measure of happiness and self respect and self confidence rises and crashes based on my wife's desire for me and her sexual satisfaction with me. Part of that is my own issues I guess having been cheated on in the past and having been friend zoned by women when I tried to treat them good and with respect and having them tell me I'm a nice guy but they just don't see me like that but then when I got fed up and started literally intentionally playing the stereotype of the selfish pigheaded bad boy who just wanted sex from them I had no shortage of these same women who wanted to sleep with me, this same guy who they had just been friend zoning when I tried to be a good man and build a real relationship with them the right way. So yeah maybe I got some issues with women not reinforcing what they say they want in a man and punishing men like me who actually want to be good to them. So when my wife has told me for years how awful the guys before me were, and I mean literally crackheads and felons who went to prison I think one actually kicked her dog she said, like legit awful to her not an exaggeration, and when we got together she said she wanted a man to treat her right and I was excited because finally a woman wanted me as a man for being myself, for being the real me I wanted to be and not having to play some stupid bad boy stereotype to get a woman to want me, and she liked it and she wanted me when we got together and she was satisfied with our sex life and she wanted sex with me as much if not more than me when we dated, when we got married, when we bought a house all the way up until we had kids and she hit 40 and started saying she was perimenopausal. And now she makes me feel like the crackheads who treated her like crap, she was turned on by them, she had a sex drive for them, they made her cum. But me being everything you could possibly ask of a man giving 110 percent as a man in every way including sexually even trying to work around her sexual inhibitions to still find ways to make sex fun and satisfying for her within her boundaries, me doing all that doesn't do it for her. The crackheads made her cum but me at max effort doesn't, but she can smirk at me and say "That's Ok you can still do acts of service for me." Like if I treat her like crap I'm good enough to make her cum but if I'm a good husband I'm only good enough to cook for her. Its hard not to be humiliated personally by that and feel your self confidence ripped out and feel this desperate need to prove her wrong, to make her cum so hard so many times you prove you are man enough for her and more man than anybody else ever has been. Its silly I know but its hard not to feel like that when she has taken such disrespectful shots at your manhood.

The funny thing is, I don't even know how much of the insulting stuff she says she actually means or even realizes how messed up it is. I confronted her about that statement during a fight afterwards and she didn't even remember saying it and says that doesn't even sound like her so she must not have said it. And she swears she doesn't feel like that. She swears she doesn't fake it with me, that she is happy with our sex life, that she does cum with me sometimes and sometimes she's just not into it. And the last time we had sex last week after almost three weeks of fighting it sure felt like she was into it and it felt different and it felt like she got off. And that was all the effort I could ask for from her. i would be fine with that level of desire and presence in our sex life like once a week. If it was real. But after the messed up things she has said its hard to have any self confidence and not have that voice in the back of your head telling you she is faking it and laughing at you behind your back with all her friends.


Yes, objectively I think I have a lot to offer a woman and a lot of reasons why a woman would be attracted to me and happy with me in a relationship and want and respect me as a man and be sexually satisfied with me. I think I have a lot to offer and I think I am a lot of what a real man should be, I give 110 percent for my partner in every way, that's a man to me that's not weakness thats being a real southern gentleman your partners happiness is of utmost importance. And to be honest listening to her friends and seeing women on line, my God the horror stories they are telling about their husbands lack of effort and the awful ways they get treated by their husbands and the insanely low bars of bare minimum these women are asking for from a man to be happy and want him. I am not only so far above that bar in every imaginable way except for money I swear to God sometimes I hear these horror stories from her friends who almost all have been cheated on by their husbands and are getting divorced and I hear the stories my therapist tells me about the women who come in to see her and what they are begging for from their husbands and it sounds like me. It sounds like they are all crying for a man to do for them all the things I am already giving my wife 110 percent. And she doesn't appreciate or want it and that ****es me off. I don't cheat on her. I don't hit her and never would as angry as she makes me. I go insanely out of my way to think of and do all the little things and if she says something about something she likes I remember it and I get it for her as soon as I can to surprise her. I am not out playing golf or going to strip clubs. I'm not smoking weed and playing Xbox. I'm helping her with the kids. I'm taking them to school. I'm off with them whenever they are off school. I watch them on Saturday morning so she can go to yoga. I take them by myself on weekends sometimes so she can get breaks and refill her cup. I literally don't ever see any of my friends anymore. I don't go out with them. I see them for like an hour once every couple of weeks when I go run. I am so all in on helping and supporting and being a good husband and still she feels no desire towards me. I was cooking more than she did and learned how to make everything she likes from restaurants at home, but after that acts of service insult I haven't cooked for her since cause I'm so freaking bitter about it now. And I have been so abundantly clear so many times I will do anything she wants sexually except other people being involved, anything else to make it good for her. I've been wanting her to try those intimacy pillows to give me a better angle so if she only likes penetration at least I have a better shot at getting her off through just penetration. I suggested wearing a vibrating **** ring so again if all she allows is penetration I'll find creative ways to meet her where she is and still get her off. I suggested lets meet in the middle of the day for nooners if you are tired at night all the time. No effort of follow through by her. Like I have so much to offer any other woman. I literally feel like the type of guy so many other women want and are telling their therapists they wish their husbands would be like. And yet here I am giving all that to my wife and she's just annoyed and pushing me away and making no effort of her own and it ****es me off.

I don't necessarily think the rich guy always wins. I just think there are a lot of single guys and single girls out there and if I am always at a competitive disadvantage to guys who have money while I'm saddled with alimony they will always choose the guy with money over me. If every woman is individually saying no to me and I never get past the dating phase to get to the point where a woman can see what I have to offer in a relationship where does that leave me.

Yes I do have despair. yes I do feel like I'm in a prison. I don't see a point of knowing I could make a woman happy and be happy but never having any chance of that because I'm either alone or with a woman who doesn't appreciate or want what I have to give. And I don't understand why what I have to give isn't good enough, isn't enough for her to at least miss that feeling and say hey i want to try to do something about it. To at least care.

If my financial fears were only half as bad as I thought, I would probably start planning my exit. I still haven't grappled with the massive guilt I will feel for disrupting my kids lives. I don't know how to deal with that and it does haunt me. Divorce hasn't seem real or feasible enough to even come to terms with that part of it but if it ever does I will have to deal with that too. I don't want to hurt them but its hard to know the only way to make the ones you love happy is to be miserable the rest of your life. Thats a tough pill to swallow.

But I'll tell you this. I talked to yet another divorce attorney last week. Yet again she wants $5,000 retainer at least half down rest in payments and she bills $395 an hour and says $5,000 probably would barely get us to mediation let alone past mediation to the finish line. So its probably more like $10,000. And there is a big difference in my outcome of divorce and whether it is survivable for me if I don't have a lawyer. If I can get a judge to impute her potential full time salary because she is fully physically capable of working full time and making almost as much as me, then my potential alimony would be minimal and short because she doesn't actually need my money to survive if she works full time. But she has worked half the day and taken care of the kids for years. And based on those salaries if the judge doesn't impute what she could make full time I would likely owe her $950 a month in alimony alone for 7-10 years. And child support would be another $900-$1,000 is what this lawyer told me. That's $1,9000 a month. I just looked at a one bedroom apartment in the absolute ghetto where I would never feel safe having my kids and it is $1,700 a month, for a one bedroom. To have visitation of my two kids I need a two bedroom and I need to be in a safe area. That's a minimum of $2,200 a month.

So that's more than $4,000 a month in rent and alimony before I've paid any utilities, food, gas, car loan, car insurance. I only take home $5,100 a month. I'm not sure I can ever survive on that let alone be have any money to date a woman at all. I'm not exaggerating the numbers really are that bad. Otherwise I would have left a long long time ago.

So if the numbers were half as bad I would leave. But they aren't. So that's why I feel stuck in prison. I have to make max effort. She makes no effort to change or meet in the middle treats me and talks to me with no respect and I have to act like I'm Ok with it and sit there and take it and not feel like a man because I'm not in a position financially to back up any ultimatums I might make. I have credit card debts that will be paid off next year then I'll be able to save money faster but next year feels like a LONG time from now.

The smallest things that could happen to make me feel hopeful? My wife could actually want to sleep with me not because she is making such an enormous effort but because she wants to. She could go into sex trying to have an orgasm and trying to enjoy it instead of going in with the attitude that she is tired and trying to get it over with as quickly as possible for me. She could work with me to find things she likes and make it fun again. Hell she could be physically affectionate again outside of sex just regular touching instead of being so **** cold and distant I hate that. My wife has an OBGYN appointment coming up she finally made after not having gone for more than a year. She could actually ask her doctor about her menopause symptoms, all of them, not just the libido. She could ask her doctor about the fatigue and moods and everything else that is making her unhappy and not feel like herself and actually listen with an open mind when the doctor tells her all of her available options which I know there is a whole industry of options to help her if she wants help. And she would try some options, reach out for help and try, put up a fight. Try something and if it doesn't work for her try something else. Show me that our love life matters hell show me that she matters to herself and that our relationship matters to her more than just paying bills and doing chores. Just make an effort that is all I'm asking. I'm not even saying it has to be HRT I just keep hearing from others how much it worked for them. I honestly was pushing more for lets go back to couples counseling or sex therapy and she is dead set refusing both. If she agreed to either it would go a huge way for me. i would appreciate that effort so freaking much. I wrote her a letter spelling all that out. At first she refused to read it and then when she did she was furious with me and called me a sex addict and sulked for days and dug in even harder against doing anything. Though she still keeps complaining about how tired and brain foggy the menopause makes her and I'm trying hard to listen and be sympathetic all the time boiling inside because there is help for all that if you just try but you just want to complain and you want the patience and the grace from me but you won't make any effort or take any accountability for yourself. It feels like lack of respect from her.

This marriage actually could be savable. But honestly not by me. I've done more than my share of the work. I want to save it but if she won't do any work to meet me more in the middle I've honestly come so far past the middle to meet her and she still isn't moving I can't do any more work. I don't have any more patience or grace. i need effort from her. But I still come back to the same problem. I don't have the money to do anything about it if she doesn't give the effort and she knows it so what incentive does she have to change if she doesn't actually love me and doesn't care if she hurts me. She has no reason to care and no reason to change because she has nothing to lose. And that makes me feel so totally worthless regardless of how much I feel like I could offer any other woman. Somehow I still ended up a loser who will never know what it feels like for a woman to want me again even though I did everything right and everything asked of me.

[JonnyR]

Acesup Ok, bear with me here. It took a moment to get through your post, but I appreciate your thoroughness and feel your pain.

Reading your post, what struck me most wasn’t your frustration with your wife. It was how exhausted you sound.

You’ve been carrying this for so long that every setback seems to reinforce the same conclusion: that you’re trapped, unwanted, and running out of hope. I can understand how someone gets there after years of feeling like they’re pushing uphill.

At the same time, I wonder if you’ve started viewing every new piece of information through that lens.

A lawyer gives you a high estimate. It confirms you’re trapped.

Your wife doesn’t immediately take action. It confirms she doesn’t care.

A difficult week in the marriage. It confirms nothing will ever change.

The problem is that when we’re hurting, our minds naturally become very good at collecting evidence for the story we’re already telling ourselves.

What stood out to me is that there are also facts that don’t fit that story quite so neatly.

Your wife made the OBGYN appointment.

She’s continuing to talk about symptoms that are affecting her quality of life.

She asked for information about a menopause specialist.

You’ve described periods where she seems engaged, affectionate, and genuinely present with you.

You even said yourself that this marriage may still be salvageable.

Those things don’t erase your pain, but they do suggest that the situation may be more complicated than “she doesn’t care and never will.”

Something else caught my attention. Throughout your posts, I hear a man who has given an enormous amount of himself to his family. I don’t doubt that for a second. But I also hear someone who is keeping a very detailed mental accounting of everything he’s sacrificed, everything he’s done, and everything he feels he’s received in return.

That’s understandable. Resentment often grows where effort feels unseen.

The danger is that once we start keeping score, every interaction gets filtered through that ledger. We stop noticing what’s being offered because we’re focused on what is still owed.

We also -- more importantly -- don't see how we're at fault anymore. We rush to finish sentences and thoughts in our own minds to fit the narrative. So things spiral even further and faster.

This is often what leads to recalcitrant relationships, and when couples go to therapy have to begin -- actually LISTENING to each other instead of assuming they already know.

I also don’t think your situation is as hopeless as you sometimes make it sound.

You’ve consulted attorneys. You’ve researched support obligations. You’ve looked at housing costs. You’ve gathered information. That’s not what a helpless man does. That’s what someone does when he’s trying to understand his options, even if he doesn’t like the answers he’s finding.

You may not have easy choices in front of you. Most people in long marriages don’t. But difficult choices are not the same thing as having no choices.

The question I keep coming back to is this:

If your wife went to that appointment, came home, and genuinely said, “I don’t feel like myself anymore, and I want help. I want to work on this together,” would that change how you feel?

Or has so much hurt accumulated that even meaningful effort from her wouldn’t repair what’s been damaged?

I think your answer to that question matters, because it may tell you whether you’re still fighting for the marriage itself, or whether you’re already grieving the loss of the marriage you hoped it would be.

[Acesup]

Thanks Jonny. You are pretty spot on with everything you said. To be honest I sometimes think it would be easier if it was clearly and completely and easily seen to be hopeless. Hope keeps me trying so hard but every time you get your hopes up and then nothing happens and the situation just keeps getting worse it breaks something in you and resent more and trust less and it becomes harder to have hope because you expect to get hurt and you anticipate the humiliation.

But to answer your question. If my wife goes to her OBGYN appointment next month and comes back and says she actually asked questions about all her symptoms including her libido and listened to her doctor explain the options (hopefully it will be a good doctor who actually explains options to her not her idiot primary who told her there is nothing to help, it goes away on its own eventually and HRT isn't covered by insurance) with an open mind and that she wants to work with me to fight back and try to address her perimenopause and get our spark back... well first I might cry I would be so relieved and appreciate her so much for trying and putting up a fight like the strong woman I know she is capable of being when she wants to be. But absolutely it would change everything for me. I would be willing to work with her in almost every way she could want and I would give her all the patience and grace she wanted while she was making effort. And if the first thing she tried didn't work out for her I would be patient and ask her to try something else, and something else till we find what works for us and I would appreciate that effort and caring and fighting for our sex life so much that I would call wherever we ended up at the end of that effort good enough and appreciate her for meeting me in the middle and we would have a happy life together.

It would change absolutely everything just her caring enough to try. She knows this. I've said all this to her. I've written her letters telling her all this. At first she refused to read the letter and then when she did she got furious with me and called me a sex addict for wanting her to want to have sex with me like once a week and for caring so much whether or not I give her orgasms. Like if that makes me a sex addict every guy on earth is a sex addict.

But it wouldn't feel hopeless to me if she was trying too and we were fighting on the same side instead of against each other. I'm not mad at her for having menopause. I'm humiliated and hurt and angry at her for not caring or missing enough to even make any effort to do anything about it. The effort and the attitude is what would change it all for me. Hell I think just her going into sex with the attitude she is trying to enjoy it and trying to have an orgasm instead of going into it with the attitude that she is tired and just wants to get it over with will make a lot of difference by itself. I just need her attitude and effort to change.

And I'm trying to meet her where she is. She said she is tired in the mornings so I've just given up on trying to initiate morning sex. She is saying she is tired at night and just wants to get it over with. So I asked her to take the day off on my birthday specifically so we can have sex during the day with no kids around at a time when she won't be tired and trying to get it over with and we can take our time and enjoy it again. I'm really trying to get creative and find ways to make it better for her while taking her needs and obstacles into account. I even bought a Liberator Wedge intimacy pillow. Haven't gotten it yet. Doubtful she will even try it since she never tried the WeVibe I bought her a decade ago. But if all she likes is penetration and intercourse with no foreplay I may not like just that but I'm trying to make creative efforts to increase my ability to satisfy her and get her off inside her limits of comfort. So if thats all she likes I want her to work with me to find the things inside her limits that work for her and not just give up and say she is tired and will never like sex again and I never make her cum but I can still do acts of service for her. I am really struggling to get over that incredibly insulting statement she said to me.

And I know I'm keeping score. its not so much a quid pro quo like she owes me. Its more a growing frustration. Like look at everything I'm doing as a man. Look at everything I am as a man. What the heck more do you want from me as a man to see me and want me as a man. If all this isn't good enough for you and what would be good enough. And why were all the crack addicts you dated before me good enough to want but me giving 110 percent is not good enough to want me. What the hell is wrong with me. That is where that resentment comes from.

[JonnyR]

Acesup, I can appreciate what you're saying -- this is so complex.

What struck me reading this is that you’ve actually been doing exactly what many people would tell you to do. You’re listening to what your wife says the obstacles are and trying to work around them.

She’s tired in the morning, so you stop focusing on mornings. She’s tired at night, so you suggest time together during the day. You planned time away from the kids. You’re looking for ways to make sex more comfortable and enjoyable within the boundaries she’s established. Whether the wedge pillow ends up helping or not is almost beside the point. The point is that you’re still looking for solutions rather than simply throwing up your hands and giving up.

That’s why I think the OBGYN appointment matters so much to you.

It isn’t really about HRT.

It isn’t really about hormones.

It’s about whether she sees this as a problem worth addressing.

From everything you’ve written over the last several months, that seems to be the wound underneath all the others. Not that she’s struggling. Not that she’s tired. Not even that her libido has changed. It’s that you’ve felt like you’re the only one trying to adapt, compromise, research, suggest ideas, and look for answers.

What gave me a little hope in your post, though, was something you may not have realized you wrote.

When I asked what would happen if she actually came back from that appointment willing to explore options, you didn’t respond like a man who’s checked out of the marriage. You didn’t say it was too late. You didn’t say the damage was done.

You said it would change everything.

That’s important.

Because despite all the hurt and resentment, it tells me that what you’re really looking for isn’t a miracle cure. You’re looking for a sign that you’re not fighting for this relationship by yourself anymore.

The other thing I’d gently challenge you on is the tendency to compare yourself to the men she dated before you. Those relationships ended. You married her. You built a life together. You raised children together. Whatever those other men represented, they aren’t the benchmark you need to measure yourself against twenty years later.

The bigger question is this:

If she does take this step, if she asks questions and starts exploring solutions, what would make you feel like you’re finally on the same team again? Is it the outcome, or is it simply knowing that she’s willing to put effort into finding one?

Oh, and as for the toys, I'll answer that in the other thread too! Those things can be fun, or make things worse...its really tough to tell.

[atskitty2]

I had to skim through a lot of this, for time's sake, but getting back to your original question about dating. If things do not work out in the marriage, and you end up separating, please, please do not rush into a dating relationship without examining the marriage, and spending some time figuring out what it is your really want. Yeah - I know sex - but beyond that. Please realize that some really deep healing needs to be done before you rush into a new relationship. If you need to find a fwb for awhile to get the sexual frustration out, then so be it, but stay very mindful that it is likely temporary, and be open and honest about that with all partners.

Now, one of the things that has stuck with me over all the time you've chatted with us, is her desire to just get it in and get it over with so to speak. It is a bit of a stereotype that women want the sensuous, sexy, prolonged, loving sessions, but not every woman wants that every time. So, I've been thinking about that so, I say this with caution, but do you think she could have fantasies of rape or something similar? Maybe she idealizes the "being taken" role, and just enjoys feeling helpless.

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, idk.

[Acesup]

Thanks Kitty. To be honest I don't think my wife has any kind of desire that is well formed enough to be a fantasy. And I've lost track of the number of times I have given her practically a blank check saying I am down to explore literally anything you want sexually except for other people being involved but literally anything else that turns you on or you are curious about I will say yes to and give it to you good and she has nothing. And I have come up with so many suggestions and ideas and anything I suggest she is an automatic no without even trying it. I am having a hard time even getting her to get on top of me cause she says it hurts her shoulders even though she almost always gets into it and orgasms when she gets on top. She is a maddeningly confusing minefield of contradictions when it comes to sex. She tells me all kinds of no's, I know everything she doesn't like sexually but I am here like literally work with me to find what you like then so I have some yes's to give you instead of nothing but no's and all i get are no she doesn't like kissing, no she doesn't like massages, no she doesn't like foreplay, no shoe doesn't like oral. I never get any idea of input or suggestion of anything she does like. And over the years I have paid attention to her body and felt things she does like and I keep doing them like rubbing my erection against her clit to get her worked up before penetrating her. For years she liked it and got off that way. Then she stopped liking it and said she feels nothing when i do that it does nothing for her and tries to go revistionist history and say she never liked it and if she wanted that she would be with a girl and she's not a lesbian she just wants me to stick it in.
But then when I do just stick it in and pound away like she says she wants, she says it feels to deep and it hurts and doesn't feel good, yeah no kidding cause she doesn't let me warm her up first anymore and just goes right to wanting me to pound her dry hole. Yeah thats probably going to hurt at first. But she is the one who wants me to stick it in and go at it rough quickie style. I'm not pushing that agenda. And then like halfway through she gets into it and then she is telling me to slow down and she is pushing back and I feel her trying to get off. I love that but again if she would let me get her warmed up and do oral and foreplay I could get her to the point of being into it earlier and probably get her off more and it would feel better and not hurt her. And to be honest if I haven't had sex for a week and my wife does feel good I love the way it feels inside her and if I've been going at it all animal and primal like she seems to like at first for like 10 minutes and its been a week since the last time I got off, by the time she is finally into it while I might not have a premature ejaculation problem any guy in my situation would be hanging on for dear life trying to hold out long enough to let her get off. So the end of sex is always a struggle of willpower for me where I can't be fully engaged and present either for different reasons and that sucks.

And to answer your question no I do not think in any way she has a rape or dominance fantasy. She likes it when I get rough and primal with her sure. But she has been extremely clear any suggestion of tying her up is an absolute no. Any breath play hands around the throat is an absolute hard no for her. Any dirty talk is an absolute hard no for her. Its more of a she likes it when i flip her over on her stomach and pound her hard from behind while pulling her hair kind of dominance fantasy but no she is way too vanilla for it to a fantasy of her wanting to be taken. And honestly I am more than willing to give her any and all of that if that is how she wants it. You want to be flipped over and taken rough and hair pulled and spanked? I am absolutely the man for the job. The problem is getting you to that point when your starting attitude is that you don't even want to do anything and you just want to lay there for me I have to get you out of your head to get to the point you are into it enough to want to be taken. If she could go into it with a better attitude or let me find some ways to get her warmed up and into it so I don't have the first 10 minutes of intercourse being trying to get her into it followed by five minutes of rough passionate sex then I could do so much better for her.

And I am also maddeningly confused by her statements and her actions. She acts like she enjoys sex during sex, eventually. And she acts like and even says that she is satisfied and she does get to orgasm regularly with me. But then when we aren't having sex she acts like she doesn't care about sex and doesn't like the idea and I don't turn her on and anything I suggest is a turn off to her and she says dumb statements like telling me she hardly ever gets off with me but I can still do acts of service for her. I confronted her about that and she said at first she didn't remember saying it then she said she was just joking and thats not how she feels and I do get her off and she actually got kind of offended at the suggestion that she would ever fake it which I found interesting. So her words and actions are so all over the place and so conflicting with each other that I don't know why my wife is or what she wants.

Does she want me or not. Do I satisfy her or not. Am I doing things right or not? Is there something else she wants cause I'll give it to her. Is what I am giving to her enough? Her input and statements and actions are so all over the map I don't know what to believe and trust. And her hormonal fluctuations are so all over the place one time she will bring it and the sex will be incredible, the next time it'll feel like nothing makes her feel anything and I'm just annoying her and I feel so humiliated. I just wish she would work with me and not against me and our sex life could be so strong. She is going to OBGYN on July 6 so I have my fingers crossed she will actually listen and try something. I also bought us an intimacy pillow I am hoping to get her to use on my birthday as a present to myself and maybe if all she likes is penetration that will ramp up my effectiveness in satisfying her just through penetration. And if rough penetration taking her dominant sex is all she wants if that is good for her and that makes her cum I can be happy with that. But if all she wants is rough quickies and that doesn't get her off either I can't live with never making my wife cum ever again. I need that.

And yes, if I do end up divorced which seems increasingly likely as unhappy as I am, I will probably go through a period of very bad behavior getting out my repressed sexual demons for all the things I haven't been allowed to do for years now. I'll be the only guy out there literally looking for a pillow princess FWB cause I haven't been allowed to go down on a woman for so long. Kind of comical. But yes I'll be making a lot of self medicating with girls types of no strings attached mistakes for several months as I heal. What I expect will pull me out of it eventually is that I'll be in my 50s so if I ultimately want a real marriage the clock is ticking.