[mcfly]

OK, it's time to get things straight for myself and my kids. I'm the most terrified I have ever been. I don't even really know where to start the thinking process for this one..

So, husband and I have a horrible 2 years of screaming, fighting, throwing things and smacking each other. Nasty things were said and feelings where hurt. At least on my part, for as much as I can tell. He said he wasn't in love with me anymore, and said he was leaving. Was going to "share" a place with his "friend who is a girl". Didn't go because he couldn't afford child support and rent. "We" talked it out a bit, came up with trying again starting at dating. He rushed it and went back to our old routine. He felt trapped again and pulled back. He had sex with "the friend who is a girl". He says it was just that weekend and nothing since. I still have questions about that.

We talked it out again, he wasn't sure what he wanted. We've been doing the dating thing again. It seemed that she wasn't being as much of a presence as before. When he is home and he is home everynight at the time he should be, the phone goes away, he is being attentive to the kids and to me, affectionate even for lack of a better word. I was starting to feel a little more grounded with this and able to give it some time to develop.

He had a week off work before starting a new job. She had been laid off from her job. I knew one day when he would have to see her. I have now found out (accidentally, a friend told me) that they were together for at least one other afternoon. He had old me where he was, just left out the part that he was with her. It was a public place, but my mind can run a million miles a second and leads me to other things.

I asked him point blank about her and he says they are friends, that he is helping her during a tough time. Says that coming home to me is a big indication of where he is going, that if he wanted to be with her he would be. He didn't go as far as saying he wanted to be with me. Though, after one of these heavy discussions, he tends to pull away. He didn't this time.

Here is where the decision part comes in. I had said to him that I am very weary of whether I am doing this for me because I still love him or am I taking my kids into consideration as well and making he best decision for them to keep trying. He then said "that is a decision you have to make".

If I don't have all the information, how can I make the right decision? I know there is a lot of talking needed from him. Right now isn't the best time to press him as he is unsettled with the new job (a new career actually). When he feels cornered, he runs like a cheetah.

I am not looking for instant love. Just to know where he is and what he is and where he is going. I think that knowing that would help stop reading into everything and analysing it for more than it is. Knowing that might let me start to trust myself and to start to trust him again. And maybe for him, if he knew where he was headed, he might be able to do the same. I guess what I am looking for is a real effort from him and a fair shot for us, not a wait and see if something better comes along approach.

If I were to make that decision today, I'd scoop up the kids and be gone. I'd be mourning the loss of my best friend and the only person I have truly loved and felt love from.

Either he really doesn't know or he is playing a game that at least from my side he has nothing to win. He is paying me the same as he would have if he left and paid child support, he can see the kids whenever he wanted etc. The only thing I can think of is the thrill of having two women. I don't know when though as the timeline of his day doesn't totally fit that.

Could it be that he is as confused as I am and the pushing me away is a defensive reaction to feeling happier again? Could all of this be a complicated way to make me leave him so that he can go on with no guilt?

If only he would talk to me about this honestly and I had reason to fully trust him. I want to suggest counselling, but again, it is too early to ask for that. And he had already said no to counselling while he were at our worst. I will bring it up again if we get to a more settled place. We are also not in a place where I can tell him he has to stop being friends with her as a condition of us working on us.

Any thoughts or advise? I know there will be comments about the "game play"...don't think I haven't thought it myself. The advise I am hoping for is about how to handle myself and my thought process on this one or on how to learn to trust myself enough to make a decision with or without the whole picture.

Thanks for reading my novel.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

This is very difficult mcfly because in reality you have had a terbulance 2 years together, fighting, hitting and I am sure you have said words that have cut like a knife as much as he has.

It amazes me when people react like this, the "love" they profess, best friend etc, not that, that is not possible but to have a "best friend" usually involves getting along really well mostly all the time, being there for each other, laughing and almost never ever arguing.

So, the thing that I see is that, your relationship combined needs to be worked on and you both need to get that "friendship" in check.

Because with all that arguing that has gone on, he may also be confused about the relationship and future, after all you keep trying to date.

I think that people usually find someone to "console" with not necessarily sexually either..

You can't listen to friends, let's face it if you don't trust your husband then you don't have that bond. And, I know that he's not really talking either but he says that it was only once, again if you don't trust him well.....

So I would be saying, I trust you... And, you are my friend, lover, husband and it's time we worked only on that, not any other issues.

And, try to bring laughter back into your lives and get anger management help or start reading up on it together...

CW

[WildChild]

It's not too early for counseling, not at all. Having a trained, uninvolved, third party can be a huge help. They can facilitate communication, push each of you to give real answers and not avoid things, help you each clarify what you want, and give you some methods and skills to work with.

Even if he won't go, you should.

It does sound like he doesn't really know what he wants and yes, he may be at some level toying with ego trip of two women striving for his attention. You want to give him and the relationship every chance and that is commendable but you need to know he is giving it his full effort too. Don't make excuses for him, that makes it too easy for him to be an idiot. He's not a child. So what he's changing jobs or careers, that doesn't give him license to screw around.

The screaming, hitting, throwing stuff at each other is wrong - all the time. You need new skills for coping - both of you.

[mcfly]

I *want* to trust him. I do try to trust him. I want to trust myself enough to be able to trust at all. I'm scared to fully trust him so soon and while things are still so unsettled between us. I want to stop reading into everything too much and then finding out he was telling me the truth at all. in my trying to trust him, I do keep seeing things that, while he tells me some of the truth, the rest of the truth involves her and he doesn't tell me. He knows to that I am likely to find out anyway, so why he isn't bring more forthcoming is a puzzle.

We are learning to be great friends again. We laugh and joke, we are being here for each other when our pride lets us admit we need the other. The anger and frustration and screaming, hitting and disappearing for hours on his part has stopped. That all stopped instantly and when the stress was gone, we easily went on the road to friends and lovers, until he involved her as something other than just his friend.

No, he isn't a child. He approaches difficult situations like a child though. He runs away from issues and tries to ignore them or leaves the hard decisions for someone else to make. This goes into my thinking that he is pushing me away and not getting more into this so that I am the one to call it quits for real and he knows if I do, that I won't change my mind and come back. He did say he was leaving but then couldn't as he didn't have the money. If he really wanted to be gone, he could have found a couch to sleep on while he worked out his finances.

I know that there is going to have to come a time, soon, where some point blank questions will need to be asked. I'm just afraid of his answers. I love him. Even after all the hurt and everything, I love him. This living together like we are together but just not "in love" has only made me remember why I love him. It makes me realize how much I didn't know I missed him when we lost ourselves and each other to being parents and mortgage holders and life gave us road blocks that knocked us down when we were already down.

Sometimes, I hate how much of myself I have given him power over. I wish I knew I could just walk on and go on without looking back. But I can't even nudge my way to the door until all my questions are answered. Even then, I am likely to want to beg for another shot. Maybe I am doing the same as he is...I want him to be the one to walk out for good so I don't have the responsibility of being the one that ended it on my hands.

Does it mean anything that it seems like neither of us wants to be the one to end it even if we don't know what "it" is now or could fashioned into in the future?

[CHANDLERS WISH]

Closure.

People generally can not walk until they know 100% that the situation they are in is 100% not what they want.

And so there is closure.

And, so they walk.

CW

[mcfly]

Maybe closure is what I am afraid of getting.

[kms]

I'd have to second the thought of getting counseling - it's not too late and it doesn't matter if he won't come - you can still benefit from it. You said yourself that you need help making the decision to leave or stay, and if you're still with him for the kids or for something more - a therapist can help you figure all that out, weigh the consequences of each choice, and help you be prepared for whichever you choose. Plus as you've said, two years of out of control anger on both sides indicates the need to work on coping skills and healthy communication skills, so you could certainly benefit from that. Plus, whatever you gain from the sessions you can bring back home with you and hopefully effect change in your husband that way.

As a word of caution - you'll never know the full story, you'll never have all your questions answered. He's running away from his problems and has a history of doing so, so why would things drastically change now? Certainly the things you feel need to know in order to LEAVE won't be made apparent - he would definitely keep all that from you as much as possible.

And of course you love him. It's natural to care about someone that you've invested so much time and energy in, who has shared such a huge part of our lives. But loving and caring about someone doesn't mean that you are automatically compatible, nor does it mean that both of you are going in the same direction and want the same things in life. You can absolutely leave someone that you love. Why - because you want the best for yourself, and for them. Maybe the best for him is having the space to work on himself, grow up, learn that his actions have real consequences...

[mcfly]

CW...
You said earlier "I think that people usually find someone to "console" with not necessarily sexually either.."

Do you mean he found consolation in her about our problems and the ones he was dealing with....or with me for his confusion now and/or guilt for how this has played out?

kms...
I have started counselling for myself, it's only been two sessions so far but I have found guidance in my thinking already, about me and how I present myself to the world. I have done a lot of self-discovery already and it feels good.

As for getting no answers from him, or incomplete ones or no attempt to even get an understanding from him is an answer too. It is just not one that I am prepared to get yet. Part of the confusion is this..I don't know that he wants enough from this to try enough to make me not leave.

When I do approach this, I need to figure out how to tell him that if I don't get what I need, or at least a big effort to start, that I will have no choice to leave. I really don't know where he is emotionally right now, or where he was about us to know how he might take it. I believe, because of the reasons that put us on the road to arguing and worse (they didn't start with this woman, it was other tough life things) that he had a nervous breakdown and shut off all of his emotions. He was not a heart on his sleeve kind of guy to start with, but I have seen no hard emotions from him about the life things that he should be feeling or about us which I hope he feels. I'm sad about the loss of what we were and the potential for our children to grow-up with a part-time father.

I agree that he may need time and space for himself to be able to work himself through the issues that surround him. But, knowing him as I do, I don't think he will do that on his own. I don't want to handhold him through anything, but be there as a support for him. A non-judgemental support (he has brought up feeling judged and put on the spot a few times). Well...he did this stuff, of course he is going to be judged by his actions. This is where the friendship with this woman started, he has said that she doesn't ask him what is going on and doesn't comment on anything when he tells her something. However, from what I see friendship as...she didn't help him with anything other than leaving me and making herself as the soft place to land when he did. She manipulated things to end up her way and took advantage of his non-thinking a his vernuable state. He is is just as responsible for his actions, I do know that.

[mcfly]

Well, I came to a decision.

I finally brought up a lot of things to him. Told him how hurt I had been by his actions during our problems, and the ones he has taken since. Told him how confused I am now. Asked him more about her and that relationship. Told him that I had crossed a line and snooped and found something that lead to more questions....etc.

He was as open as he can be, we talked about things that were influences on him and how he approached the problems we were having (they weren't marriage issues as much as how we each coped the things that life was giving us..birth, death, medical problems, pain, parents, lovers...all the heavy stuff). he did get made about the snooping, fair enough. But said that he could have an understanding of they why behind my doing I couldn't fully trust him and he knows that is because he broke the trust we had.

So, I have a clearer picture of where things are for today. I am better prepared to accept the end of this. I know I will have the strength to care for my children and give them the life they deserve, even if it isn't the one I promised each of them the minute (literally) they were born.

So, I will be making my own plans for living without him. I am currently not working ( recession!) but am in the running for a few positions. Once that is sorted and I know that financially I can make it, I will be asking him to try for real. No more waiting and seeing. Counselling for us, a suggestion that he goes himself, a firm decision about the "friend that is a girl" , a real try this time. He will either agree and do it, agree and not really try, or not agree at all. His choice. His loss if he won't go for it.

I do love him, but not for what he is presenting himself as now to the world. He is the guy I get to see...he just is afraid to be that guy again. He is being overly cocky and arrogant to keep the world at arms length from him, on his terms to protect himself from hurt. I know him deeper than that, and although it comforts him it also terrifies him too. I know that feeling well. But there is more to life for me and my kids than hiding and wondering what kind of mood he is going to be in when he decides to come home.

So I got enough closure and answers to be able to make my decision. It may be the worst one I ever make and I will miss him forever, but if that is the decision that is left, he is already gone and will never come back. It will bw time to start a new journey for the kids and myself.

[WildChild]

It's hard but at least now you can move forward with clarity. You will know that you did all you could, gave him every opportunity and that he made his choice.