[jns]

First I have to say normal is a wide classification. If it wasn't, how soon would we get into declaring abnormal something that one group or the other would say that the majority is being extremely biased or bigoted about. Live and let live.

One thing that posting here in WH has shown me is that an awful lot of men like porn as if the massive bucks porn sites pull in wasn't a clue. So much that the norm has shifted. What surprises me is the number of women who like porn and defend it. I never would have guessed that the norm had shifted that much in that direction. I think many guys don't even put two and two together to understand that many women don't like porn. So they have to be told what the limit is.

Trolling for women online and on fb should be an automatic no-no to most men in relationships, but some don't get it and have to be told.

Guys have been looking at women since the dawn of mankind (I wonder if it happens with other primates). I doubt it is going to change. There are some who don't or are smart enough to be discrete about it. If one isn't up to expectations, live with it, try to change it (guys usually don't change) or get rid of him. Tell him to only take photos of people he knows. If you really don't want him looking at any others you may have to redact any photos that may be to racy in the world around him like in newspapers, books, magazines, billboards, etc.

Just because a guy gets in a relationship doesn't mean he automatically gets his understanding of what is allowed and what is not reset. If he is smart, he may figure it out. If he is not, he might not.

I don't believe he is abnormal. He may not be the best person out there, but there are plenty of jerks.

If a girl liked porn and used it to get ready for fun with me, I would not have a problem with it. However if she was selfish or used it to belittle me, I would have a problem with it. Disclosure: I've never been with a woman heavily into porn. Disclosure: I am married for a long time.

If a girl spent her time trolling for men on online and on fb, I would allow her to do it full time, just not in a relationship with me unless we had came to some agreement beforehand.

If she took a very occasional picture or three of a hunk of a guy, I would not worry about it unless she went home with him. Then it would be like her trolling online unless we had came to some agreement beforehand.

But that is just me.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

There are some red flags here, that being at least in your mind.

Your post starts off with taking about not living with him anymore, too much work, you enjoy your weekends and he's too messy...

It mentions the relationship has been in place for 5 years and that there were issues before, "in-appropriate relations". Emotional affair? Words only, back and forth with a woman or physical? .. You state you believe that you've worked through all of that at least for the last year it's been fine. But, then you point to the fact that you can not trust him, he almost always does not communicate or tell the truth.

Now, your guard is back up because you caught photos on his camera of a beautiful woman, who could be model material in positions sexually attractive, bending over, adjusting etc.

I do tend to think that if he watched porn and you've squashed that and he's honored that, then this to him is at least squashing his desire and passion to view beautiful woman, half naked, kind of a compromise in his thought method.

Creepy no. But, if that was me on the beach and I caught him, I'd think totally differently and I would call him a perv and I would not take it as a compliment.

But, it makes me wonder and possibly you too, that's one set of photos. Does he take more? Does he now masterbate to those photos instead of porn? Sorry, to put that out there. Is that wrong though? Having in-appropriate relations is that wrong when in a relationship?

We have in-deed discussed this many a time and my personal views are, if he is not getting anything for so long, and needs visuals, IDK.. I think I understand. But, if he is getting it and has those visuals right there in front of him, ie) a good sex life, then there is no need for it within a relationship.

You say that he is 50? His kids 10 and wife was younger... So he didn't really settle until his early 40's. Possiblility there is that's very late in life to understand what constitutes a marriage, a partnership of togetherness when you have spent nearly half of your life on your own doing what ever you want.

I think that should be considered as well. And, I think you also may be putting a wedge in it by not living together, how are you going to do so 5 more years down the track? How are you going to gain this full partnership of togetherness? I think that it's difficult to change someone most certainly and we are who we are, but discussions and communication and working out how to keep the house tidy, how to jointly work on it, how to make the kids respect the home, etc, and work at being a family is more important in the long run of having that "good" partnership..

Also being apart like this, keeps it boyfriend/girlfriend, that is what he was used to I would imagine for many years, even if he married his wife in his 30's.. It's a long time to be a batchelor.

[hopefulwoman2]

Hi jns, thanks for responding again.
I will try to address each of your points made in your response with my feelings/thoughts, and I hope you know that I'm not trying to offend or discredit your point of view at all, at this point, I really appreciate your insight.

You are right about normal being a wide classification, what's normal for one person isn't normal for another in many areas. I don't believe I asked in my OP if his behavior was normal, I was really focusing on the fact that it felt like something that...well...if a girlfriend of mine told me she saw photos on her boyfriends/husbands phone of other women taken without their knowledge...I would in my head consider it creepy.
So, the fact that it's the man I've been in a relationship with for 5 yrs still makes it creepy to me. I was really concentrating on the creepy factor.
So far, no one who has responded thinks it's overly creepy, except for me. To me it says something about respect.
Just because a woman, whether it be me or that particular woman on my bf's phone is out and about in public in a bathing suit doesn't mean we are giving every man the right to take an image of our person to use later for whatever reason.
Fine, we might be subjecting ourselves to the glances or whatever from men, (as you say, "men have been looking at women since the dawn of mankind", yes we women realize that, we get it, or at least I do) but to take a photo of us without our knowledge for personal use seems like clearly disrespectful to me and speaks volumes about the character of the man doing the photo taking.
It's like he has no respect for boundaries, for clearly...we women should not have to worry about having our photos taken without our knowledge? It just seems a step above using the camera phone to snap a photo from under a bathroom stall to me.
I would feel the same way about a woman taking photos of a man without his knowledge also. Just not right. Creepy. Disrespectful.
If one of gf's said, hey, look at this guy I saw on the beach and showed me a photo that was clearly designed to have only him in the photo I would reconsider my friendship with her.

I know I mentioned porn in my OP bc it has been an issue with him in the past, and this is my point of view:
if your girlfriend is basing part of her continued relationship with you on non or minimal use of porn (there are already excellent posts about this subject on this forum, so I'm not trying to turn this into a 'porn is good' or 'porn is evil' thread, although my personal opinion leans toward the latter as I feel porn is dehumanizing, contributes significantly to human sex trafficking, disables viewers to have healthy relationships, on and on, you get the picture I'm sure), but anyway, if a girlfriend has established that she prefers only to share her life, her time, her faithfulness, commitment and her love with men who do not have porn issues and has specified non or minimal use of porn, and a boyfriend uses porn more than minimally behind her back, then that boyfriend is not being honest in his relationship and is showing disrespect to the basic foundations of that relationship.

As far as the trolling online...I got a bit lost in what you said so I don't know how to respond to that.

I have made my feelings and thoughts of what's acceptable behavior and what's not very clear, understanding, that nobody is perfect and not expecting him to live with blinders on by any means, (he often hangs out with his ex wife and other women that he is friends with, I've no problem with it at all, as long as I'm aware of it, and if his head turns when a woman walks by I don't feel that is completely disrespectful at all) and giving him the option that if those aren't terms he feels comfortable with, then ending the relationship should be the course of action. But the fact that he continually violates those terms basically tells me he is not really as committed as he claims to be...does that make sense?

Anyway, I'm still feeling the creep factor with the whole photo thing...sorry I'm writing such long posts....and I appreciate being able to do so here, it's therapeutic in a way.

[hopefulwoman2]

Hi Chandler, thanks for your advice and response



In any case..yes, living not with him has been one of my concerns in our relationship. I forgot to mention that in addition to working, I have been very slowly taking classes online to further my degree, (ok...at this rate...it's going to take me 3 or 4 more years to actually obtain that dang Bachelors...but I'm just gonna keep plugging away at it one or two classes at a time) so my free time is very limited. I started to feel resentful living far away from my friends and interests (he lives in the boonies, no coffee shops, no mall, no yoga studios, no gym, etc), and yes, I did move out about 2 months after he had what I consider an emotional affair (the woman was kinda crazy and at one point called me to tell me that I was a S--- and I was getting in the way of their relationship). Ok...big red flag right? (wondering if I"m completely dense here).
Anyway, our general conversations have leaned more toward him putting his house for sale within the next year or two, and buying one closer to where I currently live, which would also make things more convenient for him to see his children, and at that point, I would be almost done with my classes, and the children older, requiring less care (able to make own breakfasts etc) but still needing parental oversight, and that I would be willing to compromise with his messiness and the children if our relationship was strong and secure.

(I think it's important to note that according to him, his friends, his family, and from my own observance...well...I'm kind of the opposite of women he normally gets involved with...i don't have anger or psych issues for example)

Have to admit that I 'm baffled by one thing you said. I don't understand why you would think a man taking your photo without your knowledge would be perv-like if you caught him, and yet you don't think it's pervy (is that a word) for a man to have done it? Perv=creep to me

And yes, it does make me wonder if he takes more....or was this the beginning of some new obsession (he tends towards obsessions).
As far as it being inappropriate within a relationship...I don't think or feel that a man masturbating to images while in a relationship is completely inappropriate...unless it's being hidden, and quite frankly, yes, how those images are obtained is a bit of an issue for me....click of a mouse? ok...I can understand that...but to actually stalk women on a beach, snap their photo and then masturbate to it? Creepy.
So no...you weren't throwing anything out there that I hadn't already considered...cause that's pretty much where I was thinking that the use of photos would go.

I guess I should mention that sex is usually a non-issue for us...up until a few weeks ago we enjoyed a very active, loving, playful sexual relationship. And then it started turning....nothing I can quite put my finger on....we've been together long enough to enjoy some non-vanilla activities at times, and that hasn't changed except for the frequency and intensity, and rather than it feeling like a loving, sharing, exploring act...it started to make me feel distanced and as is he was not really there in the same way. I'm sorry I'm not always so good with words, especially in my somewhat emotional state here...I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

And I also agree that he was a bachelor for a long time, he didn't get married until many years after he quit being an active alcoholic (no AA, he just replaced it with use of marijuana, use of which has increased the past 6 months and around the time of this incident, he had been out of supply for a while, I'm not sure if that plays a role or not, I'm still absorbing the whole thing). I have my own theory on his long time bachelorhood and a contributing factor to his alcohol abuse was because he was sexually abused as a child, an issue he has never rec'd any counseling for. My, even as I type all this...I realize this is a whole truckload of stuff going on.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

Just looking deeper into this, as I think really you are wanting alot of answers, not just the photo situation, given your replies And, welcome to WH by the way.

So, let's look at this. You are 49, (my age ) And, you were 44 at the time, 45for him. You were a young Mother, at 19 and he was an old Father, at 34ish.. That in itself says, you've done the kid thing all your life, it's understandable at our age that a child that at least is a young teenager is easier and probably what we prefer. My Step-daughter was 11, now 14 and we laugh alot, it's all good. It would be hard as now you have your life, career options still, personal space..

If you are heading for courses and batchelor degrees, go for it. At 40 I achieved mine for business, we are not that old and we should never allow another person to stop us from who we want to become and who we are.. And, it seems that you won't. Not-with-standing though if you consider what I've written, this guy was not suited just on that note.

But, now we add in, that he was used to abusive relationships and was abused as a child physically but never got councelling on it. That he still feels probably worthless as he engaged in porn and some 'non-vanilla' with you, and therefore has a very hard time showing emotions, love, proper intimacy... I can almost see you at 44, going "awee poor thing" and wanting to save him.. Yes? When in lust and at our age, a guy gives his "baggage" as whoa's and it's not his fault, we do take on that Mother instinct. Yet you are independent as well which is a great thing it means if this ends at some stage, you will survive.

I should maybe take that back regarding perv/creep. It is perving, it is taking photos in positions that he likes to view. I'm gaging you are feeling the non-love sexually at the moment and just "sex".. A perv is a creep, creepy? I don't know I see that as dangerous..

I think if you feel that sexually it's distant and not quite there and you feel that it's sex, not with you, rather just sex then your gut feeling is right and it could be all those feelings are right.. The pictures, what they really mean etc and I know you know what I mean.

The fact he was an alcoholic and didn't seek help, he was abused and didn't seek councelling, you have laid some laws down and he's probably swapped them so he shows some respect but I am imagining still, he can not enter into a loving relationship. He can not change his ways. He did not feel love now that's evident, he felt abused and so he abuses himself.. He's not strong, you are.

I don't know what this outcome is going to be but 5 years later, he is really not at all what you hoped for. He is a lost soul that you can't really help change hun.

He has to want to do it for himself.

Dope IDK, it's a replacement of alcohol really, it's still a drug that numbs you into not thinking. And, if he doesn't have to think, then he doesn't have to remember.

Does he work? What is he like with the kids? If he's doing drugs, he wouldn't want to clean the house

What do you really want out of a partner. What do you deserve . Is this really the happy ever after? Or are you just as your name suggests "hoping ".. You're not too old, I'm engaged Older guys get where they stuffed up in life, as long as there is no baggage that you can't jump over.

[dancingintherain1178]

My gut feeling? Just from the posts you have written? I (personally) would run....run like ****. I totally understand where you are coming from as far as being okay with your man having a "beach day" with his ex, but only to a certain degree. They have children together. The kids should not miss out on having their biological parent get along...Here is the kicker!!!! The first couple hours they are on the beach... give them time to just enjoy what we all have at some point dreamed of.... mom and dad together... (GETTING ALONG), not playing kissey face... but getting along sincerely for the sake of the kids.... THAT BEING SAID, I believe that (especially) after 5 years together- you should be joining in after just a bit of time...as not to lead the kids on in thinking mom and dad are getting back together... i wish you the best! xoxo

[hopefulwoman2]

Chandler, thank you for the welcome and your encouragement.
I'm going to try to address everything you mentioned....

He does work...for himself....he's an arborist...he's the guy people call when they can't get a real tree service company to do the job because there is either not room for the equipment, or it's just a risk their insurance won't cover (such as being too close to structures etc)....he's a "climber" which is a term in that business. He makes excellent money due to his ability, skill, and willing to risk. He really, imo, would not be capable of a 'regular job'...too much a free spirit, not to mention the drug testing that may be done, and he really is almost incapable of actually finishing a job..often the people have to call in other people after he is done for clean up.

He is a good dad to his kids imo, spends time with them, goes out of his way almost to a fault really to be there at the drop of a hat whenever their mother decides he's needed....they (meaning him and the kids mom) are both kinda flaky imo though when it comes to some things...the kids are always forgetting backpacks, lunches, concerts, if they are going to an overnight party with their friends, or if they are going to have dance/baseball when he is going to have the children (which is at least every weekend, much more during the summer) it's not thought out ahead of time to have clothes packed etc, so there is much running around at the last minute. They often don't get to school on time...that kind of thing. So, between the fact that he works at his own pace and only when he wants, and that she works from home, I don't think they are learning much responsibility. I say nothing. Even though I raised my son much differently, it works for them, somehow they deal with what I perceive as needless craziness, not to mention not showing the kids the responsibility and advantage of being prepared. But that doesn't mean they aren't nice children...surprisingly, they show better manners than either of their parents most times! But I think it wouldn't be any different if they were together as an intact family unit, and who am I to judge really? The one thing that does particularly bother me is that he has never discussed with his kids is his alcoholism...I think they are at ages now where they should be told WHY Dad doesn't drink. That is the only child rearing issue I've approached with him, even suggested books that would be helpful. The children, between Mom's very high salary, and Dad's willingness to supply recreation such as seasons passes and equipment to ski, are very well met. They are very lucky children in that regard. As I've indicated, I've tried not get overly involved in their lives, but to me, this omission of discussion is putting them at a serious risk. The only other thing I've added my opinion to is to him concerning his lack of timely child support payments. His income is not garnered by a child support agency, they choose to do it on their own...but he doesn't give her x amt of dollars as is agreed upon in their divorce, and one month ago, he was here and she called him, she was quite upset bc it seems he hadn't paid her any money in many months. That bothers me. He loved this woman. She is the mother of his children. They made a legal binding agreement in their divorce. He should not put her in the position of having to ask for child support. Don't get me wrong...she makes 6figures so it's not like the kids are doing without...but she has a mortgage, and braces, and clothing etc to pay for. She should NEVER imo have to ask for that money. But I may be jaded bc I didn't receive child support? Idk, I just don't really admire that about him.

As for being in abusive relationships...we both have a history of that. My first marriage was to my childs father..pretty much forced on us by our parents, we made it 8 yrs...it wasn't horrible, but it wasn't great...we were young and struggling and that summer night we conceived a child was really truly due to me not taking my pill faithfully. My second marriage...I met him only about 1 yr after my divorce. He had 2 children. We married, he got custody of children. They were 6 and 9 at that time. Unfortunately, their Mom had mental health issues, and for many years had visitation that had to be supervised. I raised them as best I could, but I see now that I was overprotective and went overboard in many ways. He turned into a lunatic. I was physically, verbally, sexually, emotionally and psychologically abused. As soon as most of the children hit independence age...I left...lock, stock and barrel....he was so abusive I was literally scared for my life, so I had to hide that I was leaving him...pretended I was going to work that day and doing our normal routine of waking up, showering, I made his breakfast and lunch etc, was dressed in my scrubs (I'm a nurse), but then I had a son of a friend and his friend waiting around the corner with the rental moving van, as that husband was pulling out of driveway, I called the movers with the secret cell phone. Somehow, we managed to pack up everything that was mine or from my family, and that I wanted....and was able to put the stuff into my secretly rented apt...we were returning the truck by 4pm. I thought for sure he was going to be in the parking lot of my work someday and shoot me. Seriously.
I had only recently obtained my nursing degree, (not an easy task while working as a waitress and with three teenagers and an abusive husband). I signed off on the house, the pension, retirement, 401K. I took responsibility for all the marital debt except the mortgage, and I took out a huge loan to pay both attorneys. Was much easier to handle being broke and into debt deeper than my income than being so unhappy.

ANYWAY.....what I feel what I want from a partner? Honesty. Fine...at this age we all have baggage, but we also have a responsibility to work through it and fix it if it can be fixed.
Faithfulness...in act and deed and to some extent thoughts.

[hopefulwoman2]

My gut feeling? Just from the posts you have written? I (personally) would run....run like ****. I totally understand where you are coming from as far as being okay with your man having a "beach day" with his ex, but only to a certain degree. They have children together. The kids should not miss out on having their biological parent get along...Here is the kicker!!!! The first couple hours they are on the beach... give them time to just enjoy what we all have at some point dreamed of.... mom and dad together... (GETTING ALONG), not playing kissey face... but getting along sincerely for the sake of the kids.... THAT BEING SAID, I believe that (especially) after 5 years together- you should be joining in after just a bit of time...as not to lead the kids on in thinking mom and dad are getting back together... i wish you the best! xoxo

Thanks for the well wishes....much appreciated
ANd the more I talk about this...yeah...the more I'm inclined to RUN RUN RUN.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

Thanks for sharing your story.

In alot of ways you've had a rough trot. I can see that this guy isn't abusive but he isn't entirely honest.. There is baggage and there is "lost"... If only he would get help for his past, you seem to be a very strong woman, one who is assertive knows what she wants and doesn't want from life and doesn't stop either, to achieve in life.

But, people can bring you down.. Life is about lessons and I think we continue a journey until we get to the point where we have all that we expected, with little faults because of all that we went through and won't accept this time around.

I don't know if telling his kids about his alcohol abuse is nessessary at their age to be honest. I think they are too young personally and just need strong bonding from their (three) parents That's just my opinion.

Only you can work out as you go along the path you are going, which I tend to think will get stronger and stronger whether you accept, this man as the one you want to spend the rest of your life with, or whether this journey will come to an end and you will grow from this experience as well, knowing what you will and won't accept in the next relationship...

If I was a Witch Which I am called here, I would think that there will be another relationship down the track and it will be pretty much all you are after.

There is no need to rush anything. Apart from trying to "change" things that you don't like and don't wish to accept, remember, look for all the good things and if they way up in a huge capacity, maybe the fight is worth it, if they don't maybe the cup is about to run dry and you are coming to that realisation, through these discussions.......

[hopefulwoman2]

thanks so much to everyone for the advice.
for now...i'm just hanging out by myself and taking a much needed time out from him.
I've not had any desire to call him, He called and texted once only, I didn't respond.
I'm really ok with just giving myself some time to sort through all of it.
Will see what happens.