[Minnie11]

How do I find out if he maintains nc?

He's very apologetic, wants to keep the family together and never contact her again. Apparently, they never met. The only thing I have evidence about are phone calls. They're old HS friends, never even dated, she's married now and her name comes up every now and then when we have his old school friends over for a BBQ or something, but she's never been part of that group. The only thing he did was contacting her whenever we had problems and / or he had been drinking. It happened twice last year, after they reconnected on Facebook, and I really have no evidence that this isn't the truth. However, many many cheaters only admit to what the spouse already knows anyhow, so I will never be able to completely trust him. Why would I? Just because he says so? The thing is, I had trust issues before this all happened (wild nights out on business trips, strippers, gambling, alcohol), and also I have to say that IF she had reached out to him, or IF she had responded to his advances more enthusiastically, they WOULD have hooked up. It simply wasn't his choice. He now doesn't travel anymore, is home all the time, doesn't drink etc., but it's his mindset that bothers me. Just because the outside temptations aren't available to him any longer, how does that make HIM a better person? I don't know, he promises me the world now, but I can't help it. I'm thinking he's doing this for lack of opportunities. Ha.

[jns]

Minnie, in your original post, you characterized his calls to her as an affair. Do you still think it was an affair? If so, of what type? Could it be he was just getting advice from someone who was female and was level headed (some people are influenced by those who are not level headed - I would say that they are getting bad advice)? The same as talking to anyone who becomes a confidante, such as a trusted relative.

What is your evidence that he participated during wild nights out on business trips? Lipstick all over his shirts? Naughty letters? A lot of phone numbers from women? Does gambling and/or alcohol always lead to infidelity (if not, why were they included)?

Depending on the circumstances, he may have had to entertain business associates and/or clients as part of his business. I had to do that once for a former job. I was in my 20's and the other guys were in their 40's to 60's. Where I would go to for entertainment was not where they would go, but I had to be a gracious host and go to where they wanted to go. I didn't want to get anywhere near out of control, I didn't want to embarrass anybody or anyone's company and at the same time I didn't want to act too stiff. It was very uncomfortable.

I'm not sure if he did anything or not. But if he did not do anything, accusing him of doing something may sooner or later cause him to believe he cannot win. At that point, all bets may be off.

[Minnie11]

How do I find out if he maintains nc?

Well of course entertaining customers and having to drink with them has always been his main excuse. But why do I have to find out through bank statements of his business account where he entertains them? That's not forthcoming. That's hiding the facts and to me that equals lying. If he HAS to go to inappropriate places to "entertain" customers, then fine. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the lies/omitting truths. Same with his woman friend. I have a problem with 1) hiding her, 2) someone I don't know at all knowing more about my marriage than I do. If he needs advice why go to her? Whenever we have issues/problems/an argument he avoids it, wants to rug sweep, wants to change the subject. But he wants to discuss it with a STRANGER? To me it seems like he uses me and our issues as an excuse to have a reason to hook up with someone and get some extra female attention. If he doesn't want to discuss our issues with me, there is no solid reason to have the desire to discuss it with a third party. There are such things as emotional affairs, and that's why I called it an affair in my op. plus, he would be devastated if I did that to him. Seriously. What a double standard. He's super-jealous and insecure and can't even handle my friendships with women. I just don't get it.

[jns]

It sounds like you both should be in counseling, individually and together. You have a ready excuse to have him go. Tell him that he already went to a third party for advice, so going to counseling isn't any different, just that the person will be acceptable to both of you.

Exactly what do you want him to report on about his business life, in what detail and how often? If he asked you for reports like that on your life I would call it controlling. If you ask him for reports like that on his life I also would call it controlling. Since you have the bank statements, I do not see him as hiding it. Therefore calling it lying also falls apart.

Not everyone has clergy, relatives (often much older), peers (such as an AA buddy) or professionals (such as a trusted counselor) that they can go to with questions they have about their relationship. So they sometimes go to friends. I have fielded such questions from female friends from time to time and at other times guy friends. I asked for and got a fair amount of detail. I had no personal interest (that could lead to intimacy) in them, just a friend's interest in that they hopefully get their relationships working more harmoniously. Sometimes the advice was what they needed to change about themselves. Sometimes it was to try to get their partner to change.

When someone goes to a third party for help on an interpersonal relationship, it is often because they cannot go to the other person in the relationship. Maybe they cannot get their point of view out. Maybe they cannot get it considered as a valid point of view. Maybe it is dismissed. Maybe the other person is disrespectful, such as in "whatever" or "speak to the hand". Communication has to be built between the two in the relationship, even if the moves are suggested by a third party.

When you said he is super jealous and insecure; that is something he needs to work on. I really doubt he will change much as guys usually don't change. I hope some of your reactions are not in response to his personality. I hope there is no ***-for-tat or built up resentment that may be manifesting itself as oversensitivity.

[Ashlee T.]

"He who has nothing to hide, hides nothing."

I realize that there are things sometimes we don't just openly share with others. But when you (he in this case) are a jealous and insecure person, you of all people should understand the need for honesty and openness about your relationships.

I do not believe someone has to have intercourse with another to be "cheating". It's often the case that people talk to their friends about their marital issues.... but why some woman who has not been in his social circle, who he knew from all the way back in HS, etc? If you FEEL betrayed and cheated on, then you were.

My thoughts are that this is a very dishonest man. I see no reason for his turning to another woman whether emotionally or physically. I see no reason that even in sales, you would have to take your clients to strip joints? I'm a Buyer, professionally and deal with lots of sales people.. and I have never EVER seen the situation in which that was suggested (to my male counterparts) or required. Taking them out for drinks or to a club? Yes. Strip joints? Ummm...no. But even if that were the case, he'd have no reason to be dishonest about it. A more normal reaction would be for him to text you and joke something like "this creep wants me to take him to a strip joint. Dog and pony show it is!". I believe his insecurity and jealousy stems from his own actions...the guilt he carries in his own mind for the things he has done and does.

I'm sure no one that reads this thread will be shocked that he's now proclaiming his love for you and swearing to be faithful. It seems that in most instances of affair or betrayal that happens when they realize you're seriously considering ending the marriage. If he wanted the marriage ended, he'd leave. But as I said originally, he wants his cake and to eat it too.

also I have to say that IF she had reached out to him, or IF she had responded to his advances more enthusiastically, they WOULD have hooked up. It simply wasn't his choice.

And so, in your "marriage" will you lay in wait....for that moment when a woman does reach out to him? And his infidelities turn from supposedly only emotionally to both emotional and physical?

If you're going to stay in this marriage, jns is right, serious counseling will be crucial. Just whatever you do, do not allow yourself to spend your life miserable from lack of trust, lack of love, lack of respect in your marriage.

[SpankedWife]

You can't be sure. That's why he shouldn't have betrayed your trust. You said you're afraid of breaking your family up over your insecurity. That's not on you. You didn't go outside your vows. This is on him. I suggest marriage counseling so he can EARN your trust back.