[anonymouswhitefemale]

I am total believer in personal freedoms and choices. Everyone should have the right to do whatever s/he whishes as long as it doesn't interfere with another persons rights and freedoms.

As am I.

That said I am pro-life and can not understand anyone who considers themself anti pro-life. I think it is sad how easily today's society disregards an underdeveloped human being. Yes underdeveloped but HUMAN. Now I have heard many arguements about the fetus is tissue and no one cries about cancer tumors being removed from a patient and other such arguements. But this tissue is totally diffirent than anything else. This thing grows to be a person. Something that we all have in common, we weren't aborted.

So when does a baby have a "soul"? Is it the moment a semen buries it's little head into an egg? Is it a day after that? A week? What about unfertilised semen? That would be a person too had it just got another 23 chromosomes from somewhere. , I kill millions of my sperm a week masturbating, every last one of them a potential child/human. Which is just what a foetus is - a potential child/human.

If you're arguing about a life not happening, rather than a life being killed, then every time you don't jump on the nearest female and copulate with them you are preventing a life from happening.

I would put it to you, to argue that a would be mother has the right to kill her unborn child should also have the right snuff her born child, why not? Why should in or out make any difference? Why does a teen mother go to jail for strangling her infant son? Or even a father who micowaves his 2 week old child? H*ll lets bring back third trimester abortions where the woman actually starts to give birth then the doc takes a pair of scissors cuts the spinal cord before the whole child has passed through the birth canal. That doesn't sound like murder. I think women should rejoice in this right. There are a few people I know that I would snuff except for that one thing... yeah thats right I would go to prison.

Perhaps you aren't aware, but as time in the womb goes by, the foetus grows both in mind and body to closer resemble a being that is getting closer to being able to think. Which is why there is a cut-off point, you prevent the life from developing to a point where you could even call it human, it never knew it existed, it never felt anything, never learnt anything.

So there is obviously a big difference between an early abortion and microwaving a baby, you're just trying to draw extreme parallels to reinforce your personal opinon which is based on belief.

So what are we talking about here, convenience. (exculding rape) Two people are responsible enough to have sex yet now find themselves unable to cope with the child on it's way. It's too inconvenient so let kill it. Or the high road, unable to provide a good life for the child, kill it. I applaud movies like Juno (even though she did want to have an abortion) but it showed teens that having a child is not the end of the world. And giving your child up for adoption is a more responsible thing to do.

If by convenience you mean not spending 20 years hating the fact that you're bringing up a child on your own, unable to support it both mentally and financially, then yes. Perhaps you're familiar with the concept of utilitarianism? Greatest happiness for the greatest number. Raising a child in , is no better than raising another child with a good life five years down the line.

And are you saying that killing a foetus is okay if you've been raped?

And yes, what all of our children need these days is media telling them that babies are fun! Teenage pregnancy simply isn't high enough at the moment! I dunno about where you live, but unprepared single mothers faililng at raising children has made our youth a serious problem, often committing murders, having no idea how to be responsible citizens, wandering the street robbing people at knifepoint.

Giving a child up for adaption? Possibly. Aside from the fact of "why let it get to that point", the fact is that in the last 50 years the worlds population has doubled, it is a rate of growth that is unsustainable. What's the point in letting foetus' grow into people and palming them off on someone when we already face critical overpopulation and we could certainly not claim that a few month-old foetus has more of a soul than the cow that put food on our plate.

There are too few valid excuses left for unwanted pregnancies these days. Using abortion as birth control is deplorable. I knew a girl who had six abortions, 6!

An infallible method of birth control has not yet been invented - well short of scooping out a womans insides anyway. Mistakes can and will happen. That's life. Obviously relying on abortions as birth control is ridiculous, and I doubt anyone woudl. "I'm just running to the chemist to get some condoms" "Oh don't worry about it I'll just have an abortion" - as if.

As for counseling after abortions. Don't really have my sympathy they have to live with their choice a far better sentence than the one they condemned their would be child to.

Wow, that's really cold hearted. Luckily not everyone is as rigid and un-understanding as you are. Being a man, I wonder about your right to dictate your opinion to people on the matter, having little understanding of the emotions involved (kinda like how women should stay out of circumcision), and say things that would be potentially very hurtful to people that have already suffered enough.

I have always had a problem with what I feel is hypocrisy in the law(s). A woman gets sentenced to jail if she gives birth and leaves her child in a restroom/dumpster etc. but had she gone to a clinic to abort one day or even one hour earlier it would have been "ok".

That's not really true... As I'm sure you know abortions are not legal a day before birth, there is a cutoff point. And statistically speaking:

"... it was found that 88.2% of abortions were conducted at or prior to 12 weeks, 10.4% from 13 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks."

[anonymouswhitefemale]

I agree with you 100%

Women have it too easy these days.

Easy like having their life payed for by the government (taxpayer) because they have children when they're not ready? Was everything better in the days where women were aborting with knitting needles because they couldn't feed an extra mouth?

Are women that lazy or righteous that they don't have to "suffer" through working a job while caring for a child? Seriously, if you don't want kids yet, DON'T HAVE SEX!!! Plain and simple...why should a human being who can't even speak for themselves, be killed because it's convenient? It's sick!

So if a woman is raped, and becomes pregnant, it's lazy and righteous of her to want to carry on her life, achieve her goals and ambitions, live for herself before she devotes all of her body and soul to looking after something? What about a girl who's been told the implant in her arm will make it impossible to concieve? A lazy selfish wh0re or a victim of circumstance?

If this law gets passed I hope it's not Gov't funded because I will not pay out of my pocket to kill unborn babies!! Same with counseling...if you were selfish enough to have an abortion, then you should pay for it yourself.

Dunno where you live, but imagine you do pay for it already. I wont even mention the taxes that you pay that put bombs on babies heads.

As for not even giving couselling to what I see as victims, I assume that you have a completely retributive approach to breaking the law? As in, you committed a crime, the victim will now cut your leg off with a hacksaw, back into the public you go - rather than a rehabilitive approach where you try to help people get better, understand themselves and their mistakes, and allow them back into society a changed person....

[CHANDLERS WISH]

Anon
Having little understanding of the emotions involved (kinda like how women should stay out of circumcision), and say things that would be potentially very hurtful to people that have already suffered enough.

For the first time tonight, since i can recall, being 17, i cried my heart out on reading that...

Still

[CHANDLERS WISH]

am, dam n computer.

It is emotional, especially if you were not sure, did not know which way to go, did not do it for the sake of give a ......

But now that i've stopped crying, lol, fact is, i too believe that at that time, it has not developed, it is a known fact, and that, will always be my saving grace, um, except for tonight.

CW

[hello_pitty]

Anon, I have a right to defend my beliefs just as you do. No need to pick apart my posts and point the "finger of God" at me!

CW, I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but I am talking about women who KNEW what they are doing, women who say "oh well if I get pregnant I can get an abortion anyways"...it's sick!!

So if a woman is raped, and becomes pregnant, it's lazy and righteous of her to want to carry on her life, achieve her goals and ambitions, live for herself before she devotes all of her body and soul to looking after something? What about a girl who's been told the implant in her arm will make it impossible to concieve? A lazy selfish wh0re or a victim of circumstance?

Did you even read all of my post before hitting that quote button? I said if the girl was raped by some complete stranger, or even someone she knows...if she UNWILLINGLY had sex, then I can see abortion as being an option, but to use abortion as a scape goat for her mistake is RIDICULOUS!!! I am 23 and have never had kids...how hard is it to keep from getting pregnant?

But what about the kids who DIDN'T have a educational and unconditional upbringing such as I, you say? Well THIS is where we need to focus! We need to focus on the youth that are here NOW rather that having a "prevent life" attitude...preventing lives will NOT stop teenage pregnancy!

Me already paying for this ? I don't think so...I don't pay taxes...(not illegally though), but I will be moving to the states soon, so this is why I am appalled by this new movement.

Human over population? Give me a break!! If we were as densely populated as you say, we would be bumping shoulders on the highways and we would be fighting over scraps of food from someone from Japan!!
Using over population to right abortion is just a weak attempt to get me to accept your beliefs...sorry hun, ain't going to happen.

As for aborting with knitting needles, maybe we should start doing that instead of the way it's done now...just hand the would-be mom and long knitting needle, and some pain killers then send her home...hey free of charge too! But really, in reality, it wasn't "all the rave" for inconsiderate women who decided to "open up". At least not all of them.

[damd]

Rebutal for Anon

Anon,
forgive me I have not mastered the multi quote thing.

Does it matter when a person recieves their soul? I'm not for sure I have one. Can you provide 100% proof that you have one? This is not about religion it's about morality and logic. Although I do admit morality is mostly governed by religious and spiritual influences. But I think the better question would have been, when does a person become a person? How far into development is it considered a person? What is a person? What ever your answer is, I don't think you can deny that at what ever stage of development it is a sperate entity. While in the womb it is parasitic in nature but it is seperate. But unlike a parasite this organism will grow into a person, a person like you and me.

Do I mourn for the loss of the millions, billions, trillions of sperm cells that you sent off to their demise, of course not. Just like I don't mourn the loss of the thousands of skin and other cells that I lost today. Although I should mourn the loss of brain cells that I lose while drinking. I don't think I need to point out the differences to you, between sex cells and a zygote. Are you your father? Are you your mother?

Abortion is totally about a life being killed. A life that already exist. Contraception is an attemp to negate a life from ever taking place. There is a huge difference between these two.

Yes I am aware of the different stages of development of a fetus and that there is a cut off point. However I don't recognize the significance that those stages have in the determination of whether this is a person. Is a newborn a fully developed human? An infant? Toddler? Adolescent? Are any of their lives less significant because of their development?

Do you know what partial birth abortion is? When was the last third or second trimester abortion preformed in you country? Where they murders?

I do agree my paralles are extreme, but none the less, it reinforces my belief on the significance of life. Those examples actually happened.

I think Fallen1 can argue best that your assumption of 20 years of hardship trying to raise a baby is just that, an assumption.

My views on abortion do not change for rape situations either. I can not imagine the torment that a rape victim must feel and no sympathies from a person like me will eleviate that. That is an effed up situation.

Have you watched Juno? I must admit I did not know what it was about when I started to watch it. But I don't believe the message in this movie was that having babies is fun. And I do see that there has been some grotesque stories out there giving teens a feeling that having a baby is some type of new fad. However, I think there is much more media and other influences promoting abortion as the answer to unwanted pregnancy. And not enough media to the hard responsiblilties of parenting and the truth of what the repercussions. It is becoming more and more taboo to inform women who are thinking of abortion of that. The issue of what this thread was started for is proof of that. It is their goal to make an abortion as easy as it could be with out a woman truley being informed.

Population growth is a different topic and the answer to it is not mass abortions.

You are absolutely right about an infallible birth controll. But done right, the stastistics are extremely low. Like less than .02%

Yes my comment was cold hearted, but a lot less cold hearted than a person playing God with another persons life.

Hypothetically, would you support your mother aborting you? I can't imagine anyone wanting someone with that amount of control over their life... their existence.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

hello pitty

CW, I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but I am talking about women who KNEW what they are doing, women who say "oh well if I get pregnant I can get an abortion anyways"...it's sick!!

You didn't hurt my feelings, if i can't handle the heat, i won't go into the kitchen

I guess, i wish i had been less nieve, not an excuse, just saying, being wrapped in cotton wool as a child also meant that i was unable to grow up, at that point, see the world for what it was. Making decisions on my own as teenagers do.

In essense, my childhood was very controlling, and thereby, allowing other's to control my actions as well, after i left home. Whilst i was bursting to become independent, learn, stand on my own two feet, i had done what most people do in a controlling situation, entered another one.

But, i also think life is about lessons and breaking free from these things.

It's weird as i did, and i am so independent and free speaking whilst caring, yet did it again (un-beknown) to me by marrying the ex, but again, set myself free of it.

Purely, stating that as Anon says, and obviously you agree, there ARE situations whereby you are not in control, in fact my Mother had i had gone home very well may have made me as well, i believe.

I know this is a touchy subject, and one where all that have children can't possibly comprehend any such action...

I understand that. But, I don't judge people.. Decisions, right or wrong get made in life.

Trusting i'm not judged.

[miffed23]

Have you watched Juno? I must admit I did not know what it was about when I started to watch it. But I don't believe the message in this movie was that having babies is fun. And I do see that there has been some grotesque stories out there giving teens a feeling that having a baby is some type of new fad. However, I think there is much more media and other influences promoting abortion as the answer to unwanted pregnancy. And not enough media to the hard responsiblilties of parenting and the truth of what the repercussions. It is becoming more and more taboo to inform women who are thinking of abortion of that. The issue of what this thread was started for is proof of that. It is their goal to make an abortion as easy as it could be with out a woman truley being informed.


Yes my comment was cold hearted, but a lot less cold hearted than a person playing God with another persons life.

You know, it was on the news the other day that statistically,the number of teenagers that have become pregnant since the release of Juno, has quadrupled..and blah,blah, they were linking it to the film. Saying that teenagers think its cool to have babies.

I disagree completely,there is nothing out there promoting abortions, wherever you look, everything is pro-life and 'you will go to if you abort'. What promotes abortion?

Agreed, that there is not enough media / education for women to see the repercussions of parenthood, and i think there needs to be. If a women goes through the rigmoral and mental torture of having an abortion - i doubt, (unless she is one of these cold-hearted women that you speak so highly of), she would ever go through that again. No matter what the circumstances are. But,thats not the way it should be - women should be educated from a young age, exactly what is involved with terminations... rather than having to find out the hard way.

Id like to finish on your last comment - do you really, honestly believe that the majority of women whom seek out abortion, choose to do this on a whim? Do you not think that they suffer enough, toying back and forth, then living with the guilt?

In my opinion, nobody has a right to judge those women, unless theyve been in the same situation.... youve no possible idea what they go through.

Yea, i get the boring religion thing. Old news.

Its completely narrow-minded to judge any circumstance unless youve experienced it. Your opinion counts, youre judgement does not.

[miffed23]

forgot h*ll is censored...

[miffed23]

But I think the better question would have been, when does a person become a person? How far into development is it considered a person? What is a person?.

Person -
"A human body (usually including the clothing)."

"Generally, a human being. Legally, a "person" may statutorily include a corporation, partnership, trustee, legal representative, etc"

Foetus -
"The medical term for the baby from eight weeks after conception until the birth"

So, seeing the point that anon raised about statistically the majority of women abort prior to eight weeks - this makes the vast proportion of abortions irrelevant to the comparison of a foetus being a "person."