[Rainbow Rider]

The "failure" and "unhealthiness" of which I speak is the fact that the_hak starts out by mentioning:

1) the kids being in their bed and unable to sleep on their own (children must not be dependant upon sleeping with their parents, but must do so on their own without consequence),

2) implying he tried to talk to his wife about children in the bed and their lack of sex, and

3) he states that he is therefore unhappy 75% of the time.

He has posted here because he feels that this situation that they have created is not right, and he is now not happy, right?

[CHANDLERS WISH]

CW Perhaps I didn't explain it properly. The "look of awe" is more of a look of "what are you doing"?

Us, Australians awe to us mean, "cute, shucks" ...

It's difficult to go back to the beginning, and start again when things change so dramatically.

Maybe there is a key there... courting... not giving so much attention, making her wonder...

CW

[LanaBear]

The "failure" and "unhealthiness" of which I speak is the fact that the_hak starts out by mentioning:

1) the kids being in their bed and unable to sleep on their own (children must not be dependant upon sleeping with their parents, but must do so on their own without consequence),

2) implying he tried to talk to his wife about children in the bed and their lack of sex, and

3) he states that he is therefore unhappy 75% of the time.

He has posted here because he feels that this situation that they have created is not right, and he is now not happy, right?

I was just stating my opinion as you did yours. I think it was a rather broad generalization that a family bed was setting up his family for failure. That's rather harsh to a man who is already beating himself up over the issue.

As many know, I've been through this, my hubby could probably have written a post very close to this 5-7 years ago and I bet, the kids sleeping with them is not the cause nor the solution, but only one factor.

Maybe I'm just extra sensitive regarding pregnancy, women and the feelings afterwards. The emotional rollercoaster ride of thoughts and feelings that happens during this time, especially when one ends up in NICU. It simply hits a spot with me.

[pretzel]

Is hak's question not so much about the kids being in the bed or the barriers that they represent.

My guess it's the latter. But in that same vein, should we not be discussing (as has been discussed) physical and emotional issues involving mothers with young children and the effects that has on one's relationship.

If I were a betting man (and thankfully I'm not) I'd have to ask what her daily routines are and more importantly how she feels about how she looks at herself now as opposed to a couple of years ago?

[the_hak]

I think her daily routine is a big part of it, I just can't seem to find a way to break the cycle. She works a few days a week. On those days she takes the kids to the babysitter. She feels guilty about it. On days that she is home, she spends the entire day with the kids. I get home from work and she is usually exasperated having dealt with the children and the house and all that goes with it. Then we eat supper and either do some activity with the kids or sit in front of the TV. The oldest (5 years old) goes to bed (in our bed) around 9 and the youngest falls asleep at the boob. The three of us go to bed sometime around 11 with the sleeping order of my wife, baby, 5 year old and me. On weekends it is pretty much the same but I am home. We tiptoe around at nap time and the rest of the day goes off as stated above. While sitting on the couch I often give her foot rubs but cuddling is out.
I don't like to play the blame game. In fact I have always sort of blamed myself for doing or not doing something or taking it all for granted some how.

[the_hak]

I know that communication is also a big part of the problem. I try to communicate my feelings and how much the situation hurts me but I tend to withdraw as soon as I think I might be hurting her feelings. I'm not good at saying things that might make her feel bad.
One of the negative thoughts that runs through my mind when the sadness hits is my 30th birthday. I had a meeting scheduled for that evening but I managed to get out of it early. I got home and she was sitting on the computer checking her email. We had one kid at that time and she was sleeping. I suggested that we "make out" and she blew me off to continue checking her email. It has always bothered me but I've never been able to tell her how much.

[pretzel]

I think her daily routine is a big part of it, I just can't seem to find a way to break the cycle. She works a few days a week. On those days she takes the kids to the babysitter. She feels guilty about it. On days that she is home, she spends the entire day with the kids. I get home from work and she is usually exasperated having dealt with the children and the house and all that goes with it. Then we eat supper and either do some activity with the kids or sit in front of the TV. The oldest (5 years old) goes to bed (in our bed) around 9 and the youngest falls asleep at the boob. The three of us go to bed sometime around 11 with the sleeping order of my wife, baby, 5 year old and me. On weekends it is pretty much the same but I am home. We tiptoe around at nap time and the rest of the day goes off as stated above. While sitting on the couch I often give her foot rubs but cuddling is out.
I don't like to play the blame game. In fact I have always sort of blamed myself for doing or not doing something or taking it all for granted some how.

It's definately not about blame. Taking it for granted, yes.

Your house wasn't all that much different from when my kids were the same age. Here's the truth. It's easier to do it the way you and your wife are doing it.

Bedtime for your 5 y/o. Bath, bedtime story, sleep (nightlight optional). No questions, no arguing. Couple of weeks he'll be in the routine.

Same thing for the baby. Same routine. Don't worry about the crying. It happens and they fall asleep.

Couple of hours of "adult" time goes along way.

[WildChild]

I had my kids in a family bed, it isn't that difficult to transistion them to sleeping their own beds. Get them involved in the process by selecting beds or fixing up their room or space so that it is special and their own - something they really like and are excited about. Take a look at their books and you may want to add some, but look for ones with kids in their own beds, getting ready for bed and such. I was a big fan of Berenstein Bears and Little Critter. Make a point of reading and talking about how "big" kids sleep in their own beds. Start with nap time in their own beds. Oh boy!!! You to Use your bed!!! Wow!! This is so exciting!! And don't tiptoe around too much, they need to get used to sleeping regardless of what you are doing - don't be hammering and tearing out walls but don't stop all conversation and activity.

Bedtime should be a routine, for all kids. Kids should Never fall asleep in front of a TV.

I nursed both mine past 3 yrs old but the last year of that was really more a comfort thing and get less and less frequent. Ending the falling asleep while nursing is a good idea as they get toward two because the sugars in the milk sitting on their teeth all night is not a good dental practice. I started my kids on brushing twice a day and flossing once, with their first tooth. If you hunt around you can get floss holders that you change the floss on. The disposable ones, besides environmental factors, aren't a good idea for kids because they have a sharp, "toothpick" end. So get a bedtime routine going. Get into jammies, little one can nurse a but teeth must be clean before sleep and no "eating" of any kind after brushing. Some reading. How about a short kids book while little one is nursing, then tooth brushing, into beds and read a "chapter" book. Kids love that, we read Lord of the Rings ( I did edit some of the longer battles) when my son was two and my daughter 5, Hardy boys and Nancy Drew (old ones the grammar and sentence structure in the new ones is terrible) Tom Sawyer, Encyclopedia Brown, Magic Tree house books - idea that kids don't have the attention span is nonsense. Start off, remember last night they did this and that? What do you think is going to happen now?

Teeth brushed, stories read, some soft classical or lullaby music playing (I used a lot of traditional Native American music or story tellers, they are very soothing - well to me at least) maybe a little night light on, a very dim one. The first few nights, I suggest that You sit with them in dark (or night light, while they fall asleep. If they've had a busy day, like walking around the zoo (hint, hint) they'll be tired enough to sleep. Then slip out.

If they don't want to go to sleep or to start them getting used to doing so on their own, whisper, I have to check somthing or use the potty - whatever- I'll be back to check on you in a little bit, so I can see you sleeping. And slip out. Once the lights are out, there is only whispering.

You also need to start throwing into your general conversations and talk, the idea the mom and dad need some "grown up time". Personally I'm not a fan of the "tough" love idea, these are little kids not delinquents. Talk about things, let them know what to expect, make it as fun and exciting as possible. Kids are adaptable, they are also master manipulators. You have to be consistant. Generally the younger ones want to do whatever the older one does. It would probably go smoother if they start off in a room together, maybe even in the same bed for a while. Then they can move to separate beds and then separate rooms when that feels right.

They don't stay little all that long, one of these days you'll be seeing them off to the first day of school and before you know it you'll be addressing graduation announcements and looking at colleges. I guarantee long before that you will be hearing, "stay out of my room dad". And you'll find yourself saying things like, "you need get out of your room once in a while".

Dealing with your wife's feelings is another story. Many people, not just women, get the mommy syndrome. Mommies aren't sexy. Mommies are, well, moms. One step at a time, start with the bedtime stuff.

[LanaBear]

She really needs to realize that she's a mommy AND a wife, this is exactly where I failed as well. We can be loving, nurturing, caring mommy's, AND be sexy, loving, pleasured wives. Some have a hard time grasping this and always feel guilty if they feel like they are putting themselves or their spouse ahead of the children. Boy oh boy, how many times did I have this discussion with hubby.

She may need more help around the house, is it possible for you to first try and give her some mommy time when you get home? Take the kids off her hands and send her to do something for herself. It doesn't even have to be out of the house. Send her to the bathroom and lock the door, with a bubble bath, some music, candles, a book, anything, give her an hour to herself.

Also, try and get her mind from assuming that every touch from you is going to result in you wanting to get naked with her, even make out with her. Get her used to the idea of a quick peck and an I love you on the cheek. Grab her hand and hold it during dinner, etc. You'd be surprised how the really little little things that you may not have thought of mean the world to her.

[WildChild]

This is why I suggested Dad handle bedtime, it will give mom some time to do whatever.