[rcoreyus]

There is a subset of men who claim that the right way to get sex from women is to basically be selfish, and obnoxious. They will claim that "nice guys" are not respected and not desired. I hate this concept, but from reading a variety of forums, and from friends and my personal life I fear it may be true. There are so many posts from women who will do absolutely anything sexual for their obnoxious lazy boyfriends. I'm friends with a couple who fit that pattern - he does nothing, doesn't work, doesn't help around the house, ignores his wife except when he want sex - and she feels it is her *duty" to provide him whatever sex he wants. (after >30 years of marriage she is starting to rethink this).

I do everything I can for my wife to make her happy - and she is one of most sexually selfish people I know - sex is always what she wants when she wants.

To be clear, while I am a nice guy, I'm not a wimp in the normal sense. I fly airplanes, climb mountains, travel all over the world, speak in front of large crowds etc. Women in general are attracted to me (maybe because they don't know how nice I am?).

Its not worth it to me to act like an a-hole to get sex - that isn't who / what I am, but it is pretty frustrating.

How do women REALLY feel about nice guys vs bad guys?

I know this is a mix of a general question an a personal issue. But hey, not many people are posting so maybe a bit of controversy and discussion will help.

[Ashlee T.]

I think it's largely dependent upon age AND self confidence (those two things go hand in hand to some extent). Younger women (and men) tend to be more attracted to what feels like the unattainable. Also, people who lack self confidence also often find themselves chasing after something just in order to feel wanted from someone who has rejected them. Rejection is one of the hardest pills to swallow for any of us, and if you could void that feeling of rejection by FINALLY winning them over, then you'd be redeemed and get the self confidence boost you're desperately seeking.

The man you describe that you're friends with, there would be NOTHING attractive about him to me solely based on what you've said. It wouldn't matter to me what he looked like. Chances are, somewhere along the way in his wife's life, she did not establish her independence and self confidence enough to truly believe she could ever do better.

I'm a confident woman, and I am not attracted to a-holes. Sure a guy who is a mans man, like you describe yourself being, is attractive as all get out but only if he's got the right personality to match, balanced with kindness and compassion and loyalty. But a guy who is just a jerk, no. He can move on to the next.

[rcoreyus]

She is a "dutiful" wife who feels like she needs to do what her husband wants. If she had married a nicer man she would have learned that she doesn't need to be a servant. He is a vocal womens-rights activist, in words but not in his actions. She believes in equality, but somehow doesn't realize that she works a full time job, does all the housework, and supports him, while (as a "liberated man") is polyamorous and has other girlfriends. She doesn't like that, but somehow has convinced herself that she should put up with it.

I see this other places as well though - it almost seems that more obnoxious / selfish a man is, the more his wife / girlfriend will try to be good to him. I'm fully aware that many women do not behave this way, but a surprising number do. Natural? Influenced by Hollywood's strange idea of "romance"?



BTW, I am in no sense a"manly man", I was just clarifying that in general I wasn't a doormat either.

[jns]

I think the bad boy image is important for guys trying to attract a woman because it taps into a subconscious desire driven by genetics (maybe similar to most guys being more attracted to certain body shapes: waist to hips ratio). Bad boys should be better able to defend the SO and the children against predators.

In the animal world, there are precedents for the guys actions. Lion prides are usually led by a dominant male who's role is to see to the protection of the pride and defeat all interference. As such, he gets to mate with the lionesses and gets first dibs on the kill. The hunt and the kill is usually done by the females.

I have seen this in Southeast Asia, where many times a lot of the work on the farm is done by the females along with the household chores and most of the child rearing. The men are stronger, but don't ordinarily use their strength as much. They can be found gathered together eating, drinking and gambling.

[rcoreyus]

I've seen the evolutionary argument, but this is a little different. Separate from any sort of hypothetical ability to defend, men who are selfish and unhelpful seem to get more sex from women who are attempting to please / placate them. Maybe its a misguided attempt to try to get them to treat their partners better?

[jns]

They don't just get more sex, they actually demand more sex. A difference between being passive and being active about what they want. That demand with little regard for a partner can be seen by some as tamed aggression. Possibly the partner has been groomed by passive-aggressive behavior. Give in or sooner or later she gets attacked.

[rcoreyus]

Agreed and it seems a terrible way to treat someone you supposedly love. Its disappointing that it seems to work.

[Stillness]

I've been with a woman that gave me more than I could handle and one who can't handle me. I'm the same guy. The difference is the woman.

There are going to be men and women attracted to bad boys/girls. Think about the woman that catches everybody's eye when she walks into the room, who practically has a sign over her head that reads "trouble." Some guys would avoid her like the plague. Others would break their necks to get with her. Women aren't any different.

But if you're a guy that's sexually deprived and you see a guy who's not, you might try to find answers and see things that aren't there - like the thing he has that you don't being the solution. You think if he's a jerk, maybe it's because you're not. But what he really has that you don't is a willing, unselfish partner. She'd be the same with a nice guy.

[atskitty2]

I think so many things play into this. Our upbringing and religious influences, our self confidence...<br />
<br />
I'm a fairly confident, independent woman, generally speaking. I have a weakness for the bad boy type, at least in some aspects. I always say the bad boy, with a heart of gold. It isn't so much that I want to tame him. I want strength, and a man who goes after what he wants, whether that's a sandwich from the kitchen or a roll in the sheets with me...lol. <br />
<br />
So, I think some women would not be fulfilled by a man who didn't expect to be taken care of. I don't want to be "taken care of" and I wouldn't tolerate a man who expected me to either. And I think that translates into attractions. I don't find my identity in being that for anyone else. Some people do.<br />
<br />
I think taking care of ourselves, makes us eager to take care of each other, because we recognize the benefits for ourselves.<br />
<br />
And, my meds are kicking in...eyes closing.

[rcoreyus]

The "bad boy with a heart of gold" makes sense - it makes you feel special because he treats you differently from the way he treats everyone else. Where it gets confusing to me is women who stay with a man who doesn't treat them well either. Maybe its the hope that he will change? Maybe they get too committed and it never seems worth the disruption of leaving? Maybe they think this is "normal"?

A man "knows what he wants" in bed seems attractive - unless he knows what *HE* wants and couldn't care less what his partner wants. I think what is really appealing is a man who "knows what he wants" but where that just happens to also be just what his partner wants - which rarely happens in real life.