[atskitty2]

I went through menopause more than 10 years ago, early at the age of about 40-41. I'm 53 now. At the time, it was still hotly debated whether to start women on hormone replacement. The 2 women's providers I consulted advised against it, mainly because I wasn't having a lot of terrible symptoms. So, I opted out.

Over time, "little things" have creeped up. For the purposes of this forum, I'll talk about sexual stuff. My sex drive went from hot to warm, and eventually to having a numbness to anything sexual. No arousal, no interest, no feeling, no nothing. Zip. No longer saw my partner and had any thought of grabbing him, or any tingle of interest in him sexually. It happened so slowly and subtly that I really didn't feel it slipping away. Sex had become so painful that our last attempt left me in tears. Not only was there NO sensation, no natural lube, there was no way he was going to achieve penetration even with copious water-based lube. It was disastrous for us, and I didn't really connect it to hormones for awhile, I just thought it was stress.

I finally saw my NP in November. She's taken care of me for over 20 years, so we know each other pretty well. We talked, and she did an exam. I was nearly in tears with the smallest speculum, and she said I was tearing even with that. I told her at times, things were so dry that it felt like the tissues were raw, and I couldn't even apply lube appropriately because I couldn't get anything inside, and couldn't get the lube where it needed to be, just for everyday comfort. If I wasn't numb, I was burning with what felt like just raw, irritated tissues internally.

She started me on hormones, and referred me out for pelvic floor rehab. Within a couple weeks, I was starting to feel a difference, and a month in, I felt like a new woman. Not back to normal yet, but much more like myself. We'll need to do some adjustments on HRT, but I'm so pleased with where we are just 2 months in. Not just physically, but mentally, I am in such a better space.

I saw the PT last week, and while I probably could have done all this without the consult - it's stuff most of us women learn over the years - it was such a relief to chat with her and have the reassurance that yes, hormones CAN do this. She was able to get a finger inside me, 2 knuckles deep, with almost no pain. I left there grinning from ear to ear.

My man is on the larger size, so we decided on a set of dilators as close to his size as we could estimate. It's been over a year since we were able to have sex. The dilators are not uncomfortable, so I'm encouraged and eager to get our sex life back.

I've been shouting HRT from the rooftops to any and all women. Talk to your doctors ladies, when you're perimenopausal. See what's right for you.

[JonnyR]

atskitty2 I wanted to thank you so much for talking about this. As a man, and someone who is in the health and wellness space, I can't tell you how long I've been advocating for women to be on HRT (and men, too!) for years.

I've even tried to get my mom on HRT for her own well-being.

The WHI study (Women's Health Initiative) that was done about 30 years ago, did such a disservice to women everywhere; it's criminal.

HRT is SAFE if done correctly and administered by a practitioner who monitors your levels of all hormones, talks to you about your symptoms (and relief) and works with you.

Women - and men - do not have to suffer through (peri) menopause, or andropause.

It's not ok to have hot flashes, vaginal dryness, lack of libido, feel sluggish, have brain fog, lose hair, or any of literally dozens and dozens of nasty side effects.

Here is a podcast that every woman (and man who loves a woman) should listen to that I posted in another thread, just in case folks need to reference it.

It's unbiased, straight talk and scientifically derived.

https://peterattiamd.com/rachelrubin

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE -- go to a provider that will listen to you, and is science-forward and understands hormones.

[Acesup]

ATS Kitty. As weird as this will sound coming from a guy, thank you. Thank you for making an effort and doing something about the side effects of your menopause, in particular the sexual side effects, and thank you for wanting to fight back and get your sex life back and making an effort to fight back and get your sex life back.

And for the love of god do you have any advice how to talk some sense into my wife so she will do the same. Its honestly not only destroying our marriage it is destroying me as a man and as a person destroying my self esteem and making me hate every waking second of my life what her attitude is towards our sex life and how she attributes it all to perimenopause but doesn't seem to care or miss it enough to bother doing anything about it.

You fought back against menopause. You talked to a doctor and tried HRT and found something that worked for you, probably in large part because you wanted it back so your attitude was that you wanted to find something that worked for you. So you made the effort and found it.

She is almost treating her perimenopause like a get out of jail free card. Like she has a doctor's note so she has an excuse to get out of wanting to have sex with me and its about her not about me so regardless of how much it hurts me and how awful it makes our lives and our marriage I should just shut up and accept it and keep doing all the hard work of being a husband and be happy just getting a roommate in return. And I shouldn't be upset about it either. I gotta shut up and accept this with a smile and not take it personally.

She says again and again I just don't understand women. This is what happens to all women and I need to look it up and read about women, this is what happens and there is nothing that can help, nothing that a doctor or a therapist can do about it so she can't even be bothered to talk to a doctor and try anything. She couldn't even be bothered to take the blood hormone test to actually get officially diagnosed with peri and see where her hormone levels are at and her endocrinologist wants her to do that. All she cared about was getting GLP shots to lose weight. She doesn't seem to care about the sexual side effects. She won't ask about HRT at all not because of any fear but because for whatever reason she is convinced it won't help and she obviously doesn't care enough to fight to get her sex drive back anymore. Her doctor actually gave her a list of supplements to look up that could help with all perimenopause related symptoms not just sexual. She couldn't even be bothered to look them up online let alone try anything. She has been seeing an individual therapist for years, who actually used to be our marriage counselor but I stupidly agreed to give her up because my wife said she needed somebody to talk to individually and she was the only person she trusted enough to do that. But I've seen no evidence she is working on or talking about her body image issues or intimacy issues with her counselor.

Like I'm so sick of dealing with this. I want to scream at her sometimes that she is the one who doesn't understand women. She thinks this is just what happens to all women and its an automatic death sentence at 45 for your sex drive and thats it so the husband should just shut up and accept it but keep being the perfect husband in every other way. But I don't think most women think that way. I think most women miss the feeling when it gets missed with my hormonal fluctuations because it is more than physical. They miss it enough to say this is not good enough for themselves and at least try to fight back, at least talk to a doctor. Sure it's never perfect never exactly the same but just the effort would mean so much.
If I had a problem, and I'm sure I will at some point cause age catches up to every guy, I will be talking to a doctor about pills and fighting back not just giving up.

She also says I don't understand what women really want it bed, that most women don't like foreplay and don't like receiving oral they just like penetration. At one point she said only dirty *****s are into that kind of stuff and another point she said if she wanted to do all that she would be with a woman and she's not a lesbian so just stick it in already. And again i want to just scream at her that I think she doesn't understand women even though she is one and maybe she needs to get in touch with herself more. But thats a whole nother issue for another day.

But what made you finally want to talk to a doctor and do something about your symptoms versus just saying that is how it is, that is what happens I give up on our sex life. What made the difference for you. And while I know there is nothing I can do to force her to do some thing she doesn't want to do, is there anything I can do that'll help encourage or speed up her coming to that same conclusion for herself, missing it and wanting it enough to do something about it instead of just saying nothing will help I give up. I'm really trying to be patient here and a good man but I'm freaking dying here. I can't go the rest of my life never knowing what it feels like for my wife to be turned on by me or want me again.

The funny thing is when we actually have sex she goes into it with the attitude she doesn't want it and she is just doing it for me and she didn't miss it if its been a little while and goes in with the attitude that she just wants me to stick it in and make it about me and get it over with. But I've noticed that about halfway through once we are doing it her attitude changes and she does get into it and she says at least and it seems at least that she is enjoying it and climaxing at least some of the time. So its not like nothing works for her anymore and she is incapable of enjoying sex or having an orgasm anymore. She is not totally dead, she has just so convinced herself that she is that she doesn't want to and its a constant problem of her coming up with excuses, me having to run around like crazy neutralizing every possible excuse and barrier, her still not really wanting to and literally going in with the attitude she doesn't want it and won't enjoy it and me feeling like I have to overcome that attitude to finally get her into it and remembering she likes having sex with me. So she is still capable if she would just do something about her sex drive and her attitude. I'm just so sick of this impossible cycle she has us stuck in.

If she would get on HRT or supplements or make some attempt to do something to do her part to be present and regain some of her desire I would meet her wherever she was at and be happy. If I could feel her wanting and initiating again and have some ability to turn her on again instead of having to overcome her throwing up walls and almost fight against her to make sex good for her it would mean so much to me. I wonder if it really is perimenopause but that is what she blames her attitude on so I'm begging her to do something about that if it really is all about her and not about me.

[atskitty2]

Acesup, I do hear the frustration, the pain, longing and sensitivity in your comments. I need to think about your words, and return with a succinct way in which to address such deep questions and concerns, as best I can. So, please check back in a few days when I've had a chance to think through this and type up something that I feel will be helpful for you.

I will say, quickly though, that it was not the sexual aspects that drove me to get some help and address this issue. It was things like depression, a sense of disconnection from the world around me, an apathy that I've really never had, brain fog, endless food cravings and weight gain, outrageous insomnia and many other non-sexual issues. Those things that were making day to day life difficult, my work life, my family and social life.

See, the thing is, when sexual desire goes, it goes far away! It is gone, in the sense that I couldn't even really remember what it was, what it was like to care or enjoy such a thing. It's hard to explain it, but it's a little like food. Some people like chocolate, others don't care if they ever have chocolate again in their life. Indifference. It's not that we don't like, or don't want. We feel absolutely nothing toward it. No love, no like, no hate...no thought or care about it whatsoever.

So, that's a little food for thought, as I chew on your comments and think of what else I could say that may be meaningful and helpful to share with you.

[jns]

I will say, quickly though, that it was not the sexual aspects that drove me to get some help and address this issue. It was things like depression, a sense of disconnection from the world around me, an apathy that I've really never had, brain fog, endless food cravings and weight gain, outrageous insomnia and many other non-sexual issues. Those things that were making day to day life difficult, my work life, my family and social life.

See, the thing is, when sexual desire goes, it goes far away! It is gone, in the sense that I couldn't even really remember what it was, what it was like to care or enjoy such a thing. It's hard to explain it, but it's a little like food. Some people like chocolate, others don't care if they ever have chocolate again in their life. Indifference. It's not that we don't like, or don't want. We feel absolutely nothing toward it. No love, no like, no hate...no thought or care about it whatsoever.

This is pretty much what I thought the disconnection was. I should note that it happens with men as well as women. I think that the symptoms that you list are actually tied to the loss of estrogen, maybe not all but most of them. Maybe the food cravings are tied to your body trying to replace what was lost, similar to a pregnant woman getting cravings due to needing specific nutrients for the developing child. The losses may not be directly tied to estrogen but first level indirectly tied or second level indirectly tied or even further indirectly tied.

I am happy that you are getting back to how you were before. Keep on shouting the benefits of HRT from the rooftops. Maybe the benefits have to be sold as non sexual in nature. I also wonder if a similar therapy could be created for men if they have similar symptoms.

[Maggiemoo]

This is pretty much what I thought the disconnection was. I should note that it happens with men as well as women. I think that the symptoms that you list are actually tied to the loss of estrogen, maybe not all but most of them. Maybe the food cravings are tied to your body trying to replace what was lost, similar to a pregnant woman getting cravings due to needing specific nutrients for the developing child. The losses may not be directly tied to estrogen but first level indirectly tied or second level indirectly tied or even further indirectly tied.

I am happy that you are getting back to how you were before. Keep on shouting the benefits of HRT from the rooftops. Maybe the benefits have to be sold as non sexual in nature. I also wonder if a similar therapy could be created for men if they have similar symptoms.

Trt is available for men. It's simply testosterone.

My friend has started hrt while going through menapause and she feels fantastic. She's regularly going to the gym and exercising and having regular more frequent sex with her husband. Her husband is also on Trt and she has said that his sex drive is also through the roof. It's like a new lease of life that can make you feel 20 again.

[atskitty2]

Acesup
I hope you return to us for more discussion!

I think the first thing that jumps out for me in your post is your comments about not understanding women - both you and your wife. I think you need to understand that the only woman you need to understand is your wife, and the only woman that matters to your wife, is herself. We all have very different experiences with our bodies, with our reproductive health, hormones, our sexual approach, sexual experience and sexual satisfaction. If she doesn't believe she needs help, then you have to take a different approach here, if you hope to have any influence on her choices.

Sounds like there's a lot she doesn't understand either, but you really cannot make her understand anything, make her do anything or change anything that she's not ready to, and it seems like you know that already. If she isn't willing to follow the advice of her Endocrinologist, or her Gynecologist, you certainly have a tough path ahead to get her help.

Some of her comments about sex are interesting. How was your sex life prior to peri-menopause? Was it satisfying in both frequency and content? How well did you two communicate about sex, and during sex?
How is your relationship aside from sexual intimacy? Are you close in other ways? Are you affectionate in other ways, and do you have a good time together in other ways? Is there intimacy in your relationship aside from sexual touch?

As difficult as it may be, it may be important to back off the talk of hormones for awhile, let things rest and cool off a bit. Pay attention to the other ways that this is affecting her life, and begin the conversation there. Is she having difficulty concentrating? Is she a little scatter-brained when she is doing things? Difficulty sleeping? Joint aches? Changes in hair and skin? Difficulty at work? Grumpy? What else is going on in her life?
And no...lol...do not bring it all up by mentioning how dull her hair and skin have been looking lately Has she said things, or do you notice new products, or extra efforts with make-up and skin care? You mentioned she's on a GLP-1, does she have body-image issues?

You may get a lot further when she begins to feel your concern for her overall well-being, rather than focusing on the lack of sexual expression in your marriage. And maybe you've expressed that already, I don't know. It seems as though she spends some time placating you, and that's an indication to me that she may just be overwhelmed and tired of the pressures.

So, take some time just observing her, and think about all the ways she may be suffering, other than the sexual absence. Once you have an idea about that, think about how you'd like to have this conversation.

[Acesup]

Hi Thanks ATS Kitty.

I can answer most of your questions as they are pretty much all things I've noticed and dealt with before as this has been going on with a downward trajectory for a long time. That is part of my frustration is that I feel i have been very patient and understanding for a LONG time and at some point if she won't or can't be bothered to make any effort herself how long am I expected to just be patient and understanding and unless there is some hope that the problems will go away on their own at some point without her actively doing something about them what am I actually being patient and understanding for.

But to answer your questions. I'm not sure exactly when she became peri menopausal because she started claiming it at like 38 which seems way too young and she refuses to get her hormones tested so she has never been like officially medically diagnosed just her doctor saying she has all the symptoms so she probably is. I know I find it really frustrating she won't listen to her doctors and won't ask any questions about her issues and pursue it. She is only going to the Endo to get GLP shots to lose weight but tells her doctor everything else is fine and I'm here like "no everything is not fine" You can't have it both ways and blame your lack of sex drive and your mood swings on perimenopause to me but then when you are in front of a doctor you got no problems. Pick a lane and stick with it. Otherwise you are using perimenopause as a get out of jail free card to justify you acting any way you want and get out of having a sex life with me because you don't actually want to and it has nothing to do with peri. If its a problem when you are giving me excuses its enough of a problem to ask questions and take action when you are in front of your doctor. She even had a doctor give her progesterone cream once to try, which is a little questionable since she has never had levels diagnosed but whatever. She wouldn't try it. She had a doctor give her a list of supplements to look up online to help not just the sexual issues but other symptoms. She didn't even bother to look them up. I have offered to pay for a sex therapist to help us and asked her to go for years and she refuses. I bought us a couples vibrator, the WeVibe which looks really cool and fun, in 2016, for her Valentines Day gift, to both give her something to use by herself to feel comfortable and good with her body and find out what she likes and then maybe teach me what she likes once she knows and something we can use together during sex as well to have it better for her. Its still in the boxy she 100 percent hard no won't use it. She actually claims to have never masturbated in her life which doesn't seem logically possible for a grown adult woman.

Yeah her comments and attitudes about sex are puzzling and a little ridiculous and head scratching at points. She says none of her friends like receiving oral either and non of her friends like foreplay much either and I'm just like puzzled by all that. None of them are religious or anything but its like a group of women reinforcing their own sexual inhibition. So frustrating and such a weird position for me to be in as a man to be having to convince my wife no you can enjoy sex with me too you can want sex too you can have orgasms too sex is not just about the guy and getting the guy off. There is so much more it can be if you try.

She has always been super vanilla. She has never let me go down on her for more than a few seconds if that because she says that she has never liked receiving from anybody and she thinks it gross. That is super frustrating for me because that is actually my favorite thing to do with a woman. It has been SO hard for me to give that up, way more than I anticipated. But going into the relationship I felt I was able to make that sacrifice for her and all the other "kinks" I might enjoy that she wasn't into because while her boundaries didn't allow much what she did allow seemed to really work for her and satisfy her and she was really into it and wanting it with me and initiating and we had incredible sexual chemistry even operating within her limited boundaries. Was our sex life everything I could possibly want no but it was good.

I don't know that we were ever able to talk or communicate about sex very well but not for my lack of trying. I am about as kink positive as it comes. I'm had a very wide open relationship with sex most of my life, spent like a decade in various lifestyle including BDSM and being the other guy in a lot of couples threesomes and open relationships. So I'm very comfortable with sex and communicating about it. Communicating about it in some ways is my secret weapon and what makes me capable of being a good lover. I may not be the tallest guy and I am in good shape but not like professional athlete shape I think I'm pretty good looking. Nobody is knocking on my door offering me a job in porn because of my size but I think I am average size and no woman has ever complained it wasn't enough to get the job done. I'm probably average in every way except that I care so very much about satisfying a woman and giving her orgasms that I badly want to communicate about sex. I want to learn her body. I want her to tell me or show me or help me find her buttons so that I can push them better. I use my brain as my biggest sex organ and thats my biggest asset. But yeah she has never really liked talking about sex much either before or after sex and she really isn't into dirty talk during sex so its hard to even get input about what is working or not other than reading her moans and physical reactions, which I've gotten pretty good at reading her body. She's not the type you can ask was it good for you too. All that I can live with and compromise on and work with though. it doesn't have to be perfect all the way I want it. But meeting in the middle has to actually be somewhere in the middle for both of us not just all sacrifice on my part.

Our sex life started going downhill and becoming a problem after we had two kids. She wasn't post partum after our first daughter just your regular average exhausted like every mom. And yeah that got in the way of our sex life some but thats life and I got that and that caused some tension but at least it felt like we were both on the same side of the problem working together on it. After the second daughter she says she got past partum. I'm not a doctor but if she says she was then I believe her. But it was after that her attitude towards our sex life has just steadily been more and more shut down and checked out. She totally changed and started saying really messed up things when we fought like that she only married me to have kids and she got what she wanted so now she doesn't want me for anything else anymore. And one time she said how its too much effort to get into sex with me so she just gives me a performance. And she'll tell me how she used to really love giving her previous boyfriends blowjobs but with me it was too much work now cause she's old. And she has told me sometimes how nothing I do really turns her on when we aren't having sex and she doesn't think about it or miss but then she'll make off hand comments about what type of guy she does find attractive that is totally opposite of me and not somebody I could ever physically be, hard to explain without being offensive but you can read between the lines of what type of guy she said. Like she's rubbing it in my face treating me like her non threatening best friend like let me tell you right to your face what kind of guy does it for me and let me make it clear that its not you, like she's telling me I'm a nice guy and good enough to have kids with buy she just doesn't "see me that way" like I'm being friend zoned by my own wife. Super offensive and insulting. But then when you confront her about it she says she didn't say that or she didn't mean that or again blames it on the perimenopause like that excuses all bad behavior.

And what she claimed to be into sexually became progressively more and more inhibited. She never let me go down on her but she would be somewhat vocal during sex and we would make out during sex, and she let me give her foreplay like massages and touching her and using my hands to get her turned on and into it. I used to do this thing where I would grind my erection against her clit almost like dry humping her naked on the outside without penetration, the same stimulation I would be giving her clit with oral but with my erection instead of my tongue, kind of like tribbing I guess. That would reliably give her lots of orgasms. She has progressively cut all of that stuff off and says she hates all forms of foreplay now and doesn't want any warm up she just wants to get right to the penetration with no warm up and just stick it in her hole before I even have much of a chance to get her wet and pound away. It felt for a while like I was having to fight against her and trick her into enjoying sex and having orgasms and every time she figured out I was doing something to give her pleasure she would stop letting me do it. It was so frustrating.

And my issues with our sex life are not frequency, its her attitude. We don't have sex as much as we used to of course, that is life I get that. We average about once a week maybe sometimes twice a week but more often once a week. Would I love it more, sure who wouldn't. But I think thats pretty good frequency for two people in their 40s with two kids. I can live with that if we never had sex more than once a week ever again. That's a compromise I can make. But I'm sorry if you are only having sex once a week and your attitude is still that you are going into sex only doing it for me as what she used to call "wifely duty" god I hate that term. If it is too much effort to get into sex once a week so you are giving me a performance but you won't let me do anything to get you into it and give you orgasms when I know **** well how to satisfy you if you would just let me and just get out of your head and try instead of having the attitude you just want to get sex over with, like her attitude is just so **** offensive and insulting to me.

In her defense it has not been a straight line of decline. We've had fights about it and I've seen her make some effort and her attitude change for periods of time and then go back to the norm. We had a huge fight last year when she literally told me to my face during sex that she just wanted to lay there and check out and watch TV while we are having sex and I should just make it about me and get it over with cause I wasn't going to get her off. And she literally could not understand why I was so offended by that attitude. Huge fight and after that I did see a big change in her attitude towards sex. She had been experimenting with this weed based lube type stuff, basically THC in coconut oil. But she now puts it on her vagina every time just about and in her defense it does seem to get her wet really quickly so if she doesn't want foreplay at least she is wet and somewhat into it when I start penetration and it sorts of allows her to skip the warm up. And she has seemed to have been making an effort to find positions that worked for her and making an active attempt to be engaged and try to enjoy sex and achieve orgasm during sex and it felt like she discovered Oh if I show up and try its actually fun and feels good and I can cum too and I like it. So she was trying for several months and I was very happy.

But for the last month or so its felt like things are sliding back to the norm with her attitude and I just don't want to go back to that way of life. It killed me, it was destroying my self esteem. I can tell myself I'm good enough all I want but if your very own wife constantly hammers it into your head that she doesn't want you and she is the only option available for the rest of your life to feel what its like for a woman to want you, its hard not to listen to that voice. It really is.

To answer your question about non sexual intimacy. Physically speaking she will say how much she doesn't like being touched in any way and she gets annoyed when I touch her too much, kiss her too much, flirt with her too much, just trying to keep chemistry going and not become roomates. But then first thing in the morning when she wakes up before she is consious enough to be in her own head again she will often reach for me just to feel that I'm there just on the arm. And when we are laying in bed at night she hates when I make an attempt to reach for her and initiate physical contact but she will reach over and put her hand on my arm for a few seconds without thinking about it or hang her arm out for me to tickle it for her to fall asleep but its because she isn't thinking about it. When she thinks about intimacy she hates it. Its like her body and her mind are at odds with each other and when she gets out of her **** head we have good normal physical intimacy on all levels.

We actually get along pretty well on all the non intimacy work aspects of being a couple. We're great partners as parents. We support each other through hard parts of life. She should know she can always vent to me she should know I always got her back. I do as mcuh of the chores and cooking and taking on the kids as I possibly can with my job and stuff. i give 110 percent. I'm not out playing gold or smoking weed and playing Xbox. I'm very present. I make all the attempts at being sweet and romantic though they usually annoy her those efforts. She hates romance. I love the show How I met Your Mother, love it, and Mad About You, love those shows, she found them annoying and said I have some sit com view of love and thats not what its really like. Like yeah but you gotta have hopes and dreams and try. Better than being bitter. She actually watches this show about wedding dresses. I told her for our 15th anniversary I'll save up money and take her wedding dress shopping even though I guess technically I'm not supposed to be there for wedding dress shopping but you get the idea. And we would renew our vows. She says something about how I need to get her a better wedding band because the $1,000 wedding band I got when we got married isn't good enough now. And if I can't get that she doesn't want to do a renewal ceremony. Like she is capable of being a real ***** but when you say anything about it, she blames it on peri.

And to answer your question about non sexual peri symptoms, She has them all. And she knows she has them all. She points them out constantly. She claims to always be tired but also says she can't fall asleep at night. She has wild anger and mood swings. The angry yelling at me last Sunday cause I scratched up the non stick frying pan to the point it sticks now was way over the top. She apologized after but again its like peri is a get out of jail free card in her mind for acting however she wants. Yes she has the brain fog and memory issues. Oh god yes she has the hot flashes and will wake up in a sweat sometimes.

The kin and hair problems not so much but then again she puts A LOT of effort into her skin and hair and it is beautiful. I men hell every inch of her is beautiful and I tell her that CONSTANTLY and it annoys her when I tell her she's beautiful and hit on her. But its true. She took the GLP shots and lost like 60 lbs and I can't lie her body is killer now makes it even harder to not be all sexual with her but its not like I had much will power around her when she was heavier. I think a woman with curves that looks like a full grown woman is quite sexy so I have never had any issues with her body. Nor if I did would I never be stupid enough to tell her that.

I am not trying to make her feel pressured but thats my point is that she shouldn't be placating me. As hard as I work for her and as much effort as I put in for her and as long as I've been patient through all this, I feel like at this point she shouldn't be placating me. She should want me or at the very least miss wanting me enough to lift a finger and make the effort to fight to get that want back like a grown woman. If I saw her making effort again I would be patient, so patient. I have mentioned HRT when she says that line about how this happens to all women and there is nothing that can be done about it, but like I don't bring it up and pressure her about it. I know it has to be her decision. I just don't understand why she can't or won't decide to do that or at least try and why as much as I have given her decision is to just give up and not even try. When she's trying I have an will be patient and understanding. But just be patient do all the hard work of being a husband and accept that I will never know anything more than a checked out pity **** ever again when I know there are actual solutions available if she would just try. Thats hard to be patient and hope the problem magically fixes itself if I know actual fixes exist.

By any chance, does peri or full on menopause related libido issues in a woman ever fix themselves without hormones or anything else. Like if I had some glimmer of hope that just waiting it out and being patient will work I might be willing to try. Cause I do love her and I have seen flashes of effort from her. But I don't want to be stupid either and spend the rest of my life waiting for something that has zero chance of ever happening. If she won't help herself and I can't do anything to help her what am I supposed to do and do I have any hope in the future if she won't make any effort to help herself and I just be patient and try to repress how I feel.

[jns]

Hi Thanks ATS Kitty.

I can answer most of your questions as they are pretty much all things I've noticed and dealt with before as this has been going on with a downward trajectory for a long time. That is part of my frustration is that I feel i have been very patient and understanding for a LONG time and at some point if she won't or can't be bothered to make any effort herself how long am I expected to just be patient and understanding and unless there is some hope that the problems will go away on their own at some point without her actively doing something about them what am I actually being patient and understanding for.

But to answer your questions. I'm not sure exactly when she became peri menopausal because she started claiming it at like 38 which seems way too young and she refuses to get her hormones tested so she has never been like officially medically diagnosed just her doctor saying she has all the symptoms so she probably is. I know I find it really frustrating she won't listen to her doctors and won't ask any questions about her issues and pursue it. She is only going to the Endo to get GLP shots to lose weight but tells her doctor everything else is fine and I'm here like "no everything is not fine" You can't have it both ways and blame your lack of sex drive and your mood swings on perimenopause to me but then when you are in front of a doctor you got no problems. Pick a lane and stick with it. Otherwise you are using perimenopause as a get out of jail free card to justify you acting any way you want and get out of having a sex life with me because you don't actually want to and it has nothing to do with peri. If its a problem when you are giving me excuses its enough of a problem to ask questions and take action when you are in front of your doctor. She even had a doctor give her progesterone cream once to try, which is a little questionable since she has never had levels diagnosed but whatever. She wouldn't try it. She had a doctor give her a list of supplements to look up online to help not just the sexual issues but other symptoms. She didn't even bother to look them up. I have offered to pay for a sex therapist to help us and asked her to go for years and she refuses. I bought us a couples vibrator, the WeVibe which looks really cool and fun, in 2016, for her Valentines Day gift, to both give her something to use by herself to feel comfortable and good with her body and find out what she likes and then maybe teach me what she likes once she knows and something we can use together during sex as well to have it better for her. Its still in the boxy she 100 percent hard no won't use it. She actually claims to have never masturbated in her life which doesn't seem logically possible for a grown adult woman.

Yeah her comments and attitudes about sex are puzzling and a little ridiculous and head scratching at points. She says none of her friends like receiving oral either and non of her friends like foreplay much either and I'm just like puzzled by all that. None of them are religious or anything but its like a group of women reinforcing their own sexual inhibition. So frustrating and such a weird position for me to be in as a man to be having to convince my wife no you can enjoy sex with me too you can want sex too you can have orgasms too sex is not just about the guy and getting the guy off. There is so much more it can be if you try.

She has always been super vanilla. She has never let me go down on her for more than a few seconds if that because she says that she has never liked receiving from anybody and she thinks it gross. That is super frustrating for me because that is actually my favorite thing to do with a woman. It has been SO hard for me to give that up, way more than I anticipated. But going into the relationship I felt I was able to make that sacrifice for her and all the other "kinks" I might enjoy that she wasn't into because while her boundaries didn't allow much what she did allow seemed to really work for her and satisfy her and she was really into it and wanting it with me and initiating and we had incredible sexual chemistry even operating within her limited boundaries. Was our sex life everything I could possibly want no but it was good.

I don't know that we were ever able to talk or communicate about sex very well but not for my lack of trying. I am about as kink positive as it comes. I'm had a very wide open relationship with sex most of my life, spent like a decade in various lifestyle including BDSM and being the other guy in a lot of couples threesomes and open relationships. So I'm very comfortable with sex and communicating about it. Communicating about it in some ways is my secret weapon and what makes me capable of being a good lover. I may not be the tallest guy and I am in good shape but not like professional athlete shape I think I'm pretty good looking. Nobody is knocking on my door offering me a job in porn because of my size but I think I am average size and no woman has ever complained it wasn't enough to get the job done. I'm probably average in every way except that I care so very much about satisfying a woman and giving her orgasms that I badly want to communicate about sex. I want to learn her body. I want her to tell me or show me or help me find her buttons so that I can push them better. I use my brain as my biggest sex organ and thats my biggest asset. But yeah she has never really liked talking about sex much either before or after sex and she really isn't into dirty talk during sex so its hard to even get input about what is working or not other than reading her moans and physical reactions, which I've gotten pretty good at reading her body. She's not the type you can ask was it good for you too. All that I can live with and compromise on and work with though. it doesn't have to be perfect all the way I want it. But meeting in the middle has to actually be somewhere in the middle for both of us not just all sacrifice on my part.

Our sex life started going downhill and becoming a problem after we had two kids. She wasn't post partum after our first daughter just your regular average exhausted like every mom. And yeah that got in the way of our sex life some but thats life and I got that and that caused some tension but at least it felt like we were both on the same side of the problem working together on it. After the second daughter she says she got past partum. I'm not a doctor but if she says she was then I believe her. But it was after that her attitude towards our sex life has just steadily been more and more shut down and checked out. She totally changed and started saying really messed up things when we fought like that she only married me to have kids and she got what she wanted so now she doesn't want me for anything else anymore. And one time she said how its too much effort to get into sex with me so she just gives me a performance. And she'll tell me how she used to really love giving her previous boyfriends blowjobs but with me it was too much work now cause she's old. And she has told me sometimes how nothing I do really turns her on when we aren't having sex and she doesn't think about it or miss but then she'll make off hand comments about what type of guy she does find attractive that is totally opposite of me and not somebody I could ever physically be, hard to explain without being offensive but you can read between the lines of what type of guy she said. Like she's rubbing it in my face treating me like her non threatening best friend like let me tell you right to your face what kind of guy does it for me and let me make it clear that its not you, like she's telling me I'm a nice guy and good enough to have kids with buy she just doesn't "see me that way" like I'm being friend zoned by my own wife. Super offensive and insulting. But then when you confront her about it she says she didn't say that or she didn't mean that or again blames it on the perimenopause like that excuses all bad behavior.

And what she claimed to be into sexually became progressively more and more inhibited. She never let me go down on her but she would be somewhat vocal during sex and we would make out during sex, and she let me give her foreplay like massages and touching her and using my hands to get her turned on and into it. I used to do this thing where I would grind my erection against her clit almost like dry humping her naked on the outside without penetration, the same stimulation I would be giving her clit with oral but with my erection instead of my tongue, kind of like tribbing I guess. That would reliably give her lots of orgasms. She has progressively cut all of that stuff off and says she hates all forms of foreplay now and doesn't want any warm up she just wants to get right to the penetration with no warm up and just stick it in her hole before I even have much of a chance to get her wet and pound away. It felt for a while like I was having to fight against her and trick her into enjoying sex and having orgasms and every time she figured out I was doing something to give her pleasure she would stop letting me do it. It was so frustrating.

And my issues with our sex life are not frequency, its her attitude. We don't have sex as much as we used to of course, that is life I get that. We average about once a week maybe sometimes twice a week but more often once a week. Would I love it more, sure who wouldn't. But I think thats pretty good frequency for two people in their 40s with two kids. I can live with that if we never had sex more than once a week ever again. That's a compromise I can make. But I'm sorry if you are only having sex once a week and your attitude is still that you are going into sex only doing it for me as what she used to call "wifely duty" god I hate that term. If it is too much effort to get into sex once a week so you are giving me a performance but you won't let me do anything to get you into it and give you orgasms when I know **** well how to satisfy you if you would just let me and just get out of your head and try instead of having the attitude you just want to get sex over with, like her attitude is just so **** offensive and insulting to me.

In her defense it has not been a straight line of decline. We've had fights about it and I've seen her make some effort and her attitude change for periods of time and then go back to the norm. We had a huge fight last year when she literally told me to my face during sex that she just wanted to lay there and check out and watch TV while we are having sex and I should just make it about me and get it over with cause I wasn't going to get her off. And she literally could not understand why I was so offended by that attitude. Huge fight and after that I did see a big change in her attitude towards sex. She had been experimenting with this weed based lube type stuff, basically THC in coconut oil. But she now puts it on her vagina every time just about and in her defense it does seem to get her wet really quickly so if she doesn't want foreplay at least she is wet and somewhat into it when I start penetration and it sorts of allows her to skip the warm up. And she has seemed to have been making an effort to find positions that worked for her and making an active attempt to be engaged and try to enjoy sex and achieve orgasm during sex and it felt like she discovered Oh if I show up and try its actually fun and feels good and I can cum too and I like it. So she was trying for several months and I was very happy.

But for the last month or so its felt like things are sliding back to the norm with her attitude and I just don't want to go back to that way of life. It killed me, it was destroying my self esteem. I can tell myself I'm good enough all I want but if your very own wife constantly hammers it into your head that she doesn't want you and she is the only option available for the rest of your life to feel what its like for a woman to want you, its hard not to listen to that voice. It really is.

To answer your question about non sexual intimacy. Physically speaking she will say how much she doesn't like being touched in any way and she gets annoyed when I touch her too much, kiss her too much, flirt with her too much, just trying to keep chemistry going and not become roomates. But then first thing in the morning when she wakes up before she is consious enough to be in her own head again she will often reach for me just to feel that I'm there just on the arm. And when we are laying in bed at night she hates when I make an attempt to reach for her and initiate physical contact but she will reach over and put her hand on my arm for a few seconds without thinking about it or hang her arm out for me to tickle it for her to fall asleep but its because she isn't thinking about it. When she thinks about intimacy she hates it. Its like her body and her mind are at odds with each other and when she gets out of her **** head we have good normal physical intimacy on all levels.

We actually get along pretty well on all the non intimacy work aspects of being a couple. We're great partners as parents. We support each other through hard parts of life. She should know she can always vent to me she should know I always got her back. I do as mcuh of the chores and cooking and taking on the kids as I possibly can with my job and stuff. i give 110 percent. I'm not out playing gold or smoking weed and playing Xbox. I'm very present. I make all the attempts at being sweet and romantic though they usually annoy her those efforts. She hates romance. I love the show How I met Your Mother, love it, and Mad About You, love those shows, she found them annoying and said I have some sit com view of love and thats not what its really like. Like yeah but you gotta have hopes and dreams and try. Better than being bitter. She actually watches this show about wedding dresses. I told her for our 15th anniversary I'll save up money and take her wedding dress shopping even though I guess technically I'm not supposed to be there for wedding dress shopping but you get the idea. And we would renew our vows. She says something about how I need to get her a better wedding band because the $1,000 wedding band I got when we got married isn't good enough now. And if I can't get that she doesn't want to do a renewal ceremony. Like she is capable of being a real ***** but when you say anything about it, she blames it on peri.

And to answer your question about non sexual peri symptoms, She has them all. And she knows she has them all. She points them out constantly. She claims to always be tired but also says she can't fall asleep at night. She has wild anger and mood swings. The angry yelling at me last Sunday cause I scratched up the non stick frying pan to the point it sticks now was way over the top. She apologized after but again its like peri is a get out of jail free card in her mind for acting however she wants. Yes she has the brain fog and memory issues. Oh god yes she has the hot flashes and will wake up in a sweat sometimes.

The kin and hair problems not so much but then again she puts A LOT of effort into her skin and hair and it is beautiful. I men hell every inch of her is beautiful and I tell her that CONSTANTLY and it annoys her when I tell her she's beautiful and hit on her. But its true. She took the GLP shots and lost like 60 lbs and I can't lie her body is killer now makes it even harder to not be all sexual with her but its not like I had much will power around her when she was heavier. I think a woman with curves that looks like a full grown woman is quite sexy so I have never had any issues with her body. Nor if I did would I never be stupid enough to tell her that.

I am not trying to make her feel pressured but thats my point is that she shouldn't be placating me. As hard as I work for her and as much effort as I put in for her and as long as I've been patient through all this, I feel like at this point she shouldn't be placating me. She should want me or at the very least miss wanting me enough to lift a finger and make the effort to fight to get that want back like a grown woman. If I saw her making effort again I would be patient, so patient. I have mentioned HRT when she says that line about how this happens to all women and there is nothing that can be done about it, but like I don't bring it up and pressure her about it. I know it has to be her decision. I just don't understand why she can't or won't decide to do that or at least try and why as much as I have given her decision is to just give up and not even try. When she's trying I have an will be patient and understanding. But just be patient do all the hard work of being a husband and accept that I will never know anything more than a checked out pity **** ever again when I know there are actual solutions available if she would just try. Thats hard to be patient and hope the problem magically fixes itself if I know actual fixes exist.

By any chance, does peri or full on menopause related libido issues in a woman ever fix themselves without hormones or anything else. Like if I had some glimmer of hope that just waiting it out and being patient will work I might be willing to try. Cause I do love her and I have seen flashes of effort from her. But I don't want to be stupid either and spend the rest of my life waiting for something that has zero chance of ever happening. If she won't help herself and I can't do anything to help her what am I supposed to do and do I have any hope in the future if she won't make any effort to help herself and I just be patient and try to repress how I feel.

It sounds like she sees you safe and predictable and not very exciting. She gets to do what she wants the way she wants and you have to follow.

[atskitty2]

Acesup, I actually think you may have 2 separate problems here. My sense for this situation is that she is perimenopausal and experiencing all the garbage that goes along with it, but I think she's also generally unhappy. You keep saying this is a get-out-of-jail-free card for things she doesn't wanna do anyway. So, there ya have it. She doesn't want to be contributing to this relationship physically or emotionally, apparently. She sounds checked out, going through the motions with no real investment in this relationship or in you. From what I get, this has been going on for 10 years or more?

Any trauma in her past?

I would suggest you go to therapy. Not because you're wrong, or because you necessarily need to do anything differently, but I think it would be helpful for you to be able to talk through this, get some real-time perspective, and also, begin to process your own feelings, where you stand and what actions, if any, you want to take in response to her choices. Are you willing to continue this indefinitely? Are you ready to entertain the idea of a separation? If nothing else, maybe your interest in therapy will demonstrate to her just how seriously unhappy you are and how desperately you need change.