[Stillness]

I'm going to risk broaching this sensitive subject again because I heard something today that changed my perspective. This is not just an interesting subject to me since I have been profoundly affected by rape, although I'm not directly a victim. I'm constantly thinking about how I can protect the people I love from this. So please read anything I write in that spirit.

One of the scenarios that has played out in my mind, and I think in popular imagination, of certain sexual assaults is that a man and a woman have a few too many drinks, one thing leads to another, they have drunk sex, and after becoming sober the woman regrets what happened. Or maybe we imagine the same scenario, only the woman is unconscious or close to it and the man, not using proper judgment because of the alcohol, takes advantage of her.

I heard an discussion on the Diane Rehm Show yesterday (Sexual Assault on Campus) about rape and rape culture at college. There were some interesting comments about awareness. One of the guests said that her push is not to only educate men as potential perpetrators. Her reasoning was that the vast majority of men will not rape. The concept that anyone can be a rapist is wrong. I had never heard anything like this. The typical advice is always, "Be careful, because bad things can happen under the influence." The allusion is probably to some variation of the above two scenarios and that avoiding them is the aim. According to this discussion, that's the wrong approach.

Here's part of the discussion:

I just want to add something really critical. I think a lot of people when they're trying to educate men don't know the facts. Perpetration is a small amount of men. Dr. Lisak did amazing research on undetected rapists on campus. And it's a small, small, small percentage but they rape over and over and over again. And what they're doing is, whether they're using alcohol in a predatory fashion, they are purposely targeting people who are unable to consent and unable to resist. So when we educate our young men we cannot approach this as anyone can be a rapist -- not -- it's a small percentage and we really need to be targeted with how we send those messages out.

The study she's referring to is Repeat Rape and Multiple offending Among Undetected Rapists. If the findings are valid (and I suspect they are), this puts into perspective whatever blame someone wants to put on the victim. That blame is often a major problem in getting justice and gaining peace of mind - on the part of the victims themselves and those that should be supporting them. If the popular image could shift to this premeditated scenario being the norm, and the in-the-moment perpetrator scenarios being the minority, then I think there would be more support for victims and maybe even a lower incidence of rape. A rape victim who drank could be viewed as a victim as much as someone who had a drink and was mugged or murdered. Alcohol does not turn people into rapists.

[LisaW1991]

You make some very good points, and I've known guys who have held back when a girl has had a bit too much rather than take advantage of the situation. Even when the girl is very drunk and saying "I want sex, you can F' my brain out if you want", I've seen guys say "No thanks" for a couple reasons, they know there is a good chance she'll have regrets in the morning, and if she does she might claim she was raped because she didn't remember much of what happened.

I should point out, for some people alcohol releases a dark side of their personality, and they say\do things they never would do while sober. While in college I met girls who wouldn't\couldn't have sex unless they got drunk first. I met nice "sober" guys that became extremely sexually aggressive when they start to drink, 1-2 drinks, and they become a very different person (angry, hostile, violent). I agree with what you wrote "Alcohol does not turn people into rapists", yet if there is a rapist hiding inside a person, alcohol can be the trigger that allows the rapist inside to take control and do bad things.

[jns]

Stillness, this is why I don't believe consent can be given if the person is too drunk. Even if both parties are too drunk.

[DreamP346]

The issue with alcohol is that is blurs the line of consent. Here is an example that actually happens pretty frequently.

A man and a woman are intoxicated but agree to have sex. At one point in the evening the woman says that intercourse can only happen with a condom. Later on in the evening, after some more drinking, the two have intercourse. The man does not have a condom, but his judgement is impaired by the alcohol and has intercourse. The woman thinks he is using a condom. The man thinks he has consent because the woman is not saying no.

This is a grey area that can be considered rape because the consent was given with conditions which the man did not follow. Its not that alcohol is changing a good man to become a rapist, but its impairing a person's judgement. This is also a case where victims very easily get blamed. That is why this type of scenario rarely gets reported, however it is happening all the time.

[rcoreyus]

I certainly believe that there are predatory rapists who use alcohol as a tool. I think though that there are also cases where alcohol lowers people's inhibitions to to the point where they will do something that they would never do sober and that this can result in rape (or at least in a situation where someone feels like they have been raped).

I think it is a bad idea to get very drunk in a situation where you are not with people you completely trust - and maybe a bad idea even then. Even if no one is raped, things can happen that everyone will really regret later. I expect that the incidence of adultery would be a lot less if people didn't drink - being drunk can turn what should have been a private fantasy into actions.

[Stillness]

I actually mistitled the thread. I wanted it to be "Rape Culture?" with the question mark. Because, although I find the act repulsive, I wasn't sold on the "rape culture" idea. But yesterday helped to change my mind.

Here is another excerpt from the discussion:

I'm an author on the subject of talking back to sexual pressure. And I just want to say that this rape culture that we're talking about it means that all of us have responsibility to speak up when these things are going on. Good boys and good men, for example, need to speak up if they have a friend who says, hey, you went on a date with her last night. Did you get any? Did you score? The guy needs to say I didn't score. This is a human being. But that's not how the culture goes.

There was always something that didn't sit right with me about the popular scenarios for drunk rape. I couldn't quite put my finger on it until now.

Have you ever been very drunk? Imagine this scenario: Someone you think is really attractive and want to have sex with is alone in a room with you and you're as drunk as you've ever been. You're also outrageously aroused. They're extremely drunk too. You make a move and they resist and keep resisting. Or, they're unresponsive. Do you have sex with them anyway? Remember, you're wasted...The answer probably is no. What if they were initially passionately making out with you? The answer is probably still no, because you're likely not a rapist. Even drunk, we know when someone is not into it and simply would not do it with them any more than we would go into their wallet and rob them if we needed some money. As has been brought up, we do things we regret when drunk and after a certain point can't legally consent. But if a person was into it, they'll likely have regrets, not feel victimized. How likely is it really that they'll go to the authorities if they were only into it because they were drunk? People barely go when a brutal rape has occurred.

I agree with LisaW, jns, sp346, and rcoreyus' comments. Yes lines of consent can be blurred. Yes risky behaviors should be avoided. I would go further than most and say don't get drunk at all, Corey. It's bad for you. But my question is are we missing the real problem, which is predators who we are enabling by contributing to a culture of rape? That study is eye-opening. If you take a look at it or even just read the Wikipedia article under David Lizak and get the cliff notes, it gives a real glimpse into the mind and behavior of rapists.

Does a penis make you a bomb of sexual violence that will go off if given enough alcohol and put in a room with an attractive woman? Does a vagina mean that you're a wishy-washy ball of emotions that runs and cries to the police when you have regrets about something you were into when your inhibitions were lowered? That is the feeling that some have. It's a false perspective, I believe. It contributes to the environment that the predator thrives in.

[LisaW1991]

My sister has a little bit of problem with alcohol and sex. Even a little bit of alcohol causes her to want sex. Even as little as 1-2 beers triggers a strong desire to have sex. She said she has never been date raped, but there have been pleanty of times where she had sex on the first date, and couple of times of where she woken up the next morning not remembering having sex because she had bit too much to drink.

I remember when she was 11-12 during backyard BBQ party she somehow managed to drink a small amount of wine, and she became very flirty with the older guys that were there. Nothing bad happened, and the older guys just thought it was cute the way she flirted with them like preteen girls tend to do when they have a huge crush. I do think she managed to get 1-2 of the guys sexually aroused by her suggestive behavior. She liked how a little bit of wine triggered sexual feelings. At that age she didn't understand those feelings, she just liked feeling that way. It was not too long after that she started having sex with boys, especially if they had access to alcohol.

Now she got a better handle on it and knows not to drink unless she likes a guy enough to have sex with him because she knows she'll have sex if she drinks, even with guys she normally would say no to. And its not just getting drunk, for her just little bit of alcohol triggers a strong desire to have sex.

[Trisha23]

To avoid being compromised in a situation, women should be more cautious when it comes to drinking alcohol in public or with people they don't know well.

[DreamP346]

To avoid being compromised in a situation, women should be more cautious when it comes to drinking alcohol in public or with people they don't know well.

With this logic, men should also avoid drinking alcohol in public or with people that they don't know well to avoid being in a situation where consent can be questioned that people make not so smart decisions.

The culture that we live in puts the onus on women to prevent themselves from getting raped by not putting themselves in situations where rape is possible. Why don't be also put the onus on men to be responsible and not put themselves in situations where they might take advantage of women. This is the type of double standard that propogates rape culture. Drinking/alcohol is something men and women should do responsiblity. The heavier responsiblity should not be focused on just one gender. This is the type of thinking that promotes victim blaming.

A lone women going to a bar and having a drink of two can easily be considered a compromising situation where she may get raped. Does that mean women should never go out alone, never have a drink along? We would never put the same standard on men. Then why do we keep putting the burden of preventing rape on women and not on men.

I am not saying that women shouldn't be careful and aware of their surroundings, especially when alcohol is involved. But why just women? Why don't we ask the same of men?

[Little]

From the RAINN website:
Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
28% are an intimate.
7% are a relative.

Rape polices women's life. We can't drink. We can't use other impairing substances. We can't go to new places. We can't meet new people. If we do, we have to bring along a known man who is physically imposing - more physically imposing than the people we're meeting or the people in the places we're going. And then we probably "owe" the man some sexual favors for protecting us! Rape happens to women in all situations, who act all ways, who do all things. One in four women of college age have been raped, one in eight women in college get raped. 35% of male college students in one survey said they'd commit rape if they could get away with it. One in twelve in the same survey admitted to committing acts that match the legal definition of rape.

Rape has nothing to do with regret. It has to do with entitlement, expectations, and power. Rape culture is certain people lacking respect for others enough to disregard their consent for some reason - and feeling vindicated in doing so. Rape culture is also other people vindicating rapists, particularly by blaming victims. She was drunk. She wore a short skirt. She was alone at night.

I agree that not just anybody can be a rapist. But a rapist can be anybody. Your neighbors, your coworkers, your classmates, your cousins, your hometown heroes.