[jen1447]

So, I'm supposed to be talking to a friend of mine (platonic) on Skype right now, but I'm not because of 'tough love.' I'll try to keep the story short - she's a woman who's had something of a trying life (abusive husband, etc.) who has largely overcome it but she struggles with depression to some extent, tho I think she also indulges in self-pity. The self-pity part is where the problem is. It's a useless emotion that's totally counterproductive. And yes, we all do it from time to time. It's a pretty regular pattern with her tho, and whenever she falls into it she makes little or no progress in life (and she still has progress to be made). My biggest issue with it is that it's elective - she chooses to think things like "I have to shut off my feelings" rather than having her feelings shut off involuntarily like a person with serious depression issues might have happen. So this amounts to making little or no progress in life during these times because she chooses not to.

Anyway I talk to her on Skype fairly frequently and I get to be the pity-dump to a large extent. She doesn't indulge in typical forms like trying to convince me that her life sucks and I should feel bad, but moreso just the negativity that she seems to want me to endorse, which of course I can't - both for her sake and because I think it's basically a lie. So finally tho I decided to "bow to her conviction" you might say (she's an adult after all, why shouldn't I, ultimately?) and respect that she's chosen this path, which is where the tough love comes in, because I basically have nothing to talk about with a person who's on this path. I finally told her as much and that while I respected her decision to think of herself this way, I couldn't endorse it anymore because I believe it's destructive, and that there was no real point in talking as long as that mentality dominated our relationship. I also told her that if she ever got back on her feet I'd be there for her again, but that in her current state I felt there was nothing I could do for her, mainly because by her own sort of tacit admission she wanted nothing done.

So naturally I feel like crap about this now because I feel like I'm abandoning her, tho I am pretty resolute in my conviction that I'm right. But this isn't a plea for pity of my own lol - I understand that tough love has to feel like crap. I'm mainly just interested if anybody has a dissenting opinion, like do I actually have a no-matter-what obligation to her to back her up, even if it means she goes down the drain with me cheering? Or am I wrong about what she needs, or even the nature of friendship at all?

Opinions welcome, and thanks.

[Ashlee T.]

My first inclination is that it seems like your relationship with her is very one sided. (Of course, I'm basing this on one post and am aware there is probably much more to the friendship than I know.) I have found that when you're level headed, fairly emotionally balanced, and have a giving nature....it is easy to be to some extent taken advantage of by "friends"...especially pity party friends. I feel like those people FLOCK to me in droves sometimes, and while I enjoy helping and listening...there are times I think "Why am I the ONLY one ever listening and offering words of advice?". Friendship needs to go two ways. Otherwise, you find yourself emotionally "sapped" and fed up.

If the relationship is NOT one sided like described above, then I don't think it has to be a "cheer her on" or "don't talk to her at all" kind of situation. There is a medium ground there somewhere that says, "I don't agree with you. I don't relate to your perspective and don't think you're making the best choices for yourself. But, you're my friend and while I won't encourage your behavior, I will be there for you as a friend." That ONLY applies if the relationship is give take, not take take.

[KMonte85]

I have a number of these kinds of "friends" too, and a couple years ago, I did very much the same thing you did, Jen. I cut off the emotional drain. For a while I wouldn't talk to them at all. Then little by little, we resumed our friendship, but kept it to non-inflammatory subjects (anything that wasn't their pity party). I just didn't have it in me to continue being frustrated by their lack of action, as much as I loved them as people and enjoyed their company.

Unfortunately, people like your friend are very frustrating to deal with. It sounds terrible, because you love the person, however, their constant self-inflicted struggle can be so daunting to listen to time and time again. For as much as you want to be selfless, and help, the friend has to WANT to change, that's how people and relationships grow and flourish. Without it, we remain stagnant, and stagnancy is a poison to a healthy, vivacious life.

I guess the choice is yours at this point. Very much like BD said, if it was one-sided and you don't miss the interaction, then perhaps you've outgrown the friendship and it's time to move on. However, if you find you miss her, and there was a good connection when you two weren't talking about her self-inflicted drama, then you may want to try again, but with some limitations for your own sake.

[Pollon]

You are not obligated to encourage your friend in what you believe is self-destructive behavior. However, one of the causes and/or symptoms of depression is that the person becomes overly self-focused.

Your tough love approach allows her to remained focused on herself. "Poor me, another person doesn't understand me and has abandoned me."

That is you got on your high horse and lectured her about what she needs. It's a you, you, you perspective.

I'm not saying that a different perspective will make her better, but turning the focus onto yourself (rather than her) might help her see that her behavior hurts others, not just herself.

You say something like,

"Honey, you are one of my dearest friends and I have tried to be there for you for years. However, in spite of my efforts, I end up feeling helpless when nothing changes. I am expending myself for no good end because your needs are beyond my ability. I need to devote my life energy to productive pursuits. I've come to realize that this relationship is damaging me. It hurts me to see you stuck in pain. I hope you will find someone who has the ability to help. I'm really sorry."

She may never come to realize the happiness that comes from serving others. However, she may realize that being self-centered hurts the people she cares about and, therefore, "get over herself."

[atskitty2]

This is a tough one jen...and I have a friend I'm in a similar situation with that I have been thinking about posting for opinions about. So...I have a lot of thoughts on this, because I've been thinking so much on it regarding my own friend.

I agree actually with the 3 posters above, as well. I think there's no right/wrong answer here, it's a matter of this situation being capable of going many ways.

My first question for you is, what is your intention here? Self-preservation (as in, it's exhausting & trying on your own sanity to listen to this chatter)? or to help her? or to make a point with her?
How interested are you, REALLY, in preserving (or salvaging) the friendship?
Those are questions you can ask yourself, not necessarily answer for me. At least, in my case...I gave up trying to help my girlfriend awhile ago. At this point for me, it's about not allowing her negative outlook & down times to intrude on my own mentality, which is hard when you care for someone. I cannot help her, she needs to want to change her life & thought processes. It's also important for me to maintain the friendship, because I do care for her & have reviewed the idea of ditching her, and I don't want to.

So, I think there's nothing wrong with what you did, but there are also other ways to handle it.
Now, when my girlfriend complains that we never go out, I point out to her that she has had opportunities to come out with me, and chose not to. I emphasize CHOSE!
When she starts whining about her divorce 10 yrs ago, and how she's only been on a couple dates...I remind her of the opportunities...

I don't play along with her sadness any more and agree that it all sucks and how life could be so much better. I just point out that we have a choice to make it better every day.

It goes right over her head, but (here's the important part) I HAVE THE PEACE that I'm not playing into it. I have said some things that weren't very gentle, and that was no fun, but it needed said.

"that there was no real point in talking as long as that mentality dominated our relationship. I also told her that if she ever got back on her feet I'd be there for her again, but that in her current state I felt there was nothing I could do for her",
I think you may have been able to take a step toward this before actually ditching her (If you didn't take that step) She was probably completely blind-sided, confused, doesn't understand it & just thinks, as someone above stated, that it's someone else who doesn't care about her...and the negative nelly goes round again...

So, I am sure there's a lot more to this story, and I'm sure you do feel crappy. But don't. You did what you think is the best thing. It may be what she needed - maybe the only time anyone made a point of telling her that her attitude stinks & she's difficult to be around, etc.
Keep us posted Dear

[CHANDLERS WISH]

How much time do you have?

These people will always Skype, facebook, email, whoa is me. However, you can make a huge change in their life, instead of tough love, to me that's saying I believe in something different, I am positive you are negative. I can't do this, so I'll claim tough love. These people get this all the time and they continue on their downward spiral.

What you have to weight up is her personality if she could "listen" and take advice or whether what ever you say, ever, will continue with the negativity. In other words she will never listen.

I've met people like this. With someone believing in them and a bit more time, they change.

Hence why I said how much time do you have.

Only you know if this person will continue on this negativity in life which I would suggest to you to stay away from.

Or, whether you can turn her with encouragement. In which case I would say do it. It does work and wonderful things do happen to them as a result.

People have their problems in life. If all others do is listen to them, off course all they will ever do is complain,

[catwoman]

Hmmm, this is a tough subject. I've dealt with depression on and off for the last 13 years of my life. It is by no means easy and it's really easy to get sucked into the pity party way of thinking. Sometimes you don't even know you're doing it because it just becomes a habit until someone points it out. I agree with Chandlers Wish. Have you talked to her about her negativity? Is there a way she'll listen if you put it all out there? It could be bad to shut her out, because that could just be adding fuel to the fire, but if she's a toxic friend, as if she's causing you to get depressed then I understand cutting back with her in your life. Is it possible when you do talk via Skype, you can just change the subject to something more cheery to try veer her thoughts away from the negativity? It's not your responsibility to make her happy though, but in my opinion, a real friend doesn't just give up 100% and says when you get your problems sorted out THEN call me.

I would explain to her that you will be there for her when she needs you, but her negativity is affecting your friendship and would appreciate if she'd try to be a little more positive. As the saying goes, Positive things happen to positive people. I just wouldn't turn my back on her completely, unless you 100% think she's never going to change. Then you need to rid toxic people from your life, but only if you feel it's hopeless.

I have cut several negative people from my life, but that's only because I knew it was their personality and not just depression or a bad time in their life. They weren't going to change, that is who they are, so I don't feel bad about that, but still say hi occasionally, but don't make it a point to meet up with them.

[jen1447]

Thanks ladies. I'll reply to some of your input/questions in time, mainly trying to take it all in right now.

[jen1447]

My first inclination is that it seems like your relationship with her is very one sided. (Of course, I'm basing this on one post and am aware there is probably much more to the friendship than I know.) I have found that when you're level headed, fairly emotionally balanced, and have a giving nature....it is easy to be to some extent taken advantage of by "friends"...especially pity party friends. I feel like those people FLOCK to me in droves sometimes, and while I enjoy helping and listening...there are times I think "Why am I the ONLY one ever listening and offering words of advice?". Friendship needs to go two ways. Otherwise, you find yourself emotionally "sapped" and fed up.

If the relationship is NOT one sided like described above, then I don't think it has to be a "cheer her on" or "don't talk to her at all" kind of situation. There is a medium ground there somewhere that says, "I don't agree with you. I don't relate to your perspective and don't think you're making the best choices for yourself. But, you're my friend and while I won't encourage your behavior, I will be there for you as a friend." That ONLY applies if the relationship is give take, not take take.

It's definitely not one-sided - she's a good woman at heart. I do think tho that she's still taking liberties, as there's a lot of wiggle room in relationships between one-way and two-way. So it's something like she's a good woman who yet likes to be gloomy/doomy at strategic times and pass it off as some sort of worldly cynicism while ignoring the cop-out part. I should also explain that to be friends with someone, I don't really require any direct benefit. So when I say she's a good woman, I mean that objectively, not because I've profited in any way other than the most basic nature of friendship. She's my friend, period.

As to trying to find the medium ground, that's a struggle because when she gets that way it colors our conversations pretty dramatically. I've told her lots of times I don't agree with the outlook, and even gotten kind of edgy with her because I think it's a bit insulting to people who have genuine issues there, but I've never 'broken' her of it and never really expected to. I kind of figured I would hold my ground and hopefully her life circumstances would improve and she would come around. Now they have improved, but instead of riding the wave, she's selecting this failure attitude. That's really saddening to me.

[jen1447]

I have a number of these kinds of "friends" too, and a couple years ago, I did very much the same thing you did, Jen. I cut off the emotional drain. For a while I wouldn't talk to them at all. Then little by little, we resumed our friendship, but kept it to non-inflammatory subjects (anything that wasn't their pity party). I just didn't have it in me to continue being frustrated by their lack of action, as much as I loved them as people and enjoyed their company.

Unfortunately, people like your friend are very frustrating to deal with. It sounds terrible, because you love the person, however, their constant self-inflicted struggle can be so daunting to listen to time and time again. For as much as you want to be selfless, and help, the friend has to WANT to change, that's how people and relationships grow and flourish. Without it, we remain stagnant, and stagnancy is a poison to a healthy, vivacious life.

I guess the choice is yours at this point. Very much like BD said, if it was one-sided and you don't miss the interaction, then perhaps you've outgrown the friendship and it's time to move on. However, if you find you miss her, and there was a good connection when you two weren't talking about her self-inflicted drama, then you may want to try again, but with some limitations for your own sake.

The nature of our friendship, for better or worse, is primarily for her benefit. (I hope that doesn't sound high-horsey, sorry.) I started talking to her shortly after she got away from her abusive husband a couple years ago, and consequently the focus was generally on her and her circumstances, because she was struggling while I wasn't. I don't generally need much 'help' with life personally, so while we will discuss each other's lives, the focus is generally on hers. FWIW, I'm fine with that - I like helping people and I'm happy to do it when people are in need. And I should point out again that she is a good woman. I admire a lot of things about her - she showed a lot of courage in getting away from her ex and getting back on her feet with a job, etc., which just makes it all the more frustrating that she'd start giving up now that she's a bit ahead.

This all goes toward explaining the notion of implementing limitations ....if I take her personal life/attitude/progress off the table (which is where she goes into the 'hopeless' attitude from time to time), there's not really a whole lot left to talk about since we're so accustomed to talking largely about that. Me telling her about what outfit I wore to work or how it's cold here will run out of gas pretty quick. She pretty much always wants to start in on the dramas of her looking for a relationship, and since that hasn't gone well for her yet she'll quickly fall into the "I don't care" mode, and then right away we're at the same crossroads of me patting her on the head like a child or trying to prop her up by not indulging the self pity. That sounds a bit petty but it's really more than that ....the issue represents her entire world view, basically.