[atskitty2]

That's great news! Any progress is positive!
Keep us posted!

[jen1447]

Hit another bump in the road with my friend ....

She's been as good as her word on the doom and gloom stuff, so that's all good. But the other night we were chatting and having a 'serious' discussion about religion (I know, it should never be discussed publicly lol) and she says that I crossed the line and insulted her. So my question is - and this ties in with Trix's recent thread about honesty - do I have some obligation to withhold my opinions about any given topic if they might be harmful to someone? I was assuming we were just having a spirited discussion and I was treating her like an adult, meaning not that I was trying to land haymakers on her but I wasn't coddling her either. So she disconnected on me after she got mad enough and I respected that and waited for her to reach back out to me, and she eventually did and accused me of always making her be the one to reach out lol.

So I'm in the strange position where apparently she wants me to sort of crawl back and apologize for being honest and up front, as opposed to patronizing. ("What a cute opinion you have there - that's delightful!" etc.) For the record, she brought the topic up. So am I obligated to do this, given her special circumstances and vulnerability, or do I stand my ground? At the risk of sounding pretentious, I think this could be a good opportunity for her to grow (if nothing else just by learning to accept that not everything is gonna go your way all the time as a result of some cosmic fairness rule), but how much of that should you really put people thru who've already been thru a lot? And why does my dignity need to be sacrificed lol? I don't think I was wrong about the topic, and I wasn't 'attacking' her no matter how she feels about it. Honestly it was one of those cases where you have to realize that your position is sort of a house of cards thing and accept it gracefully, but people so often lash out instead with ad hominum retaliation etc. and choose to see it as an attack because their feelings were hurt.

On a similar note, is it ever the right thing to do to go down in history as an a-hole and have a friendship ended specifically because taking the fall might benefit the other person? Or as applies to this case, I think she could grow or be toughened up by having to basically eat crap on this score, but most likely the friendship would end and I would forever be thought of as the friend who betrayed her. So it would actually be me eating crap in the longterm and willingly appearing to be the bad guy when I wasn't in order to get a life lesson thru to her. Is that ever appropriate?

[rcoreyus]

I think you can be careful about what you say to acquaintances, but friends deserve honesty. If they can't tolerate honesty, maybe they are not a good choice for friends.

That said, I think it is OK to avoid topics that you strongly disagree on IF discussion of those topics won't go anywhere. I am agnostic with a touch of satanist. I have a cousin who is a fundamentalist christian pastor. We don't talk about religion - neither of us is going to change the other's opinions, so there is no point in getting people upset.

[Trixareforkids]

I have a few relationships like this, with family rather than friends. We can't choose family, but we do choose friends and I feel that some friendships SHOULD end. It's fine for a friendship to be unequal but there has to be SOMETHING good on both sides. If she simply can't hear your opinions because she's so caught up in her own misery (or whatever) and gets her feelings hurt or a regular basis, then she's not really a friend, she's your therapy patient. I'm like you, I'm a helper, a relationship doesn't need to be even but I do need to be getting something and I've let a couple of friendships fade where the person constantly talked about the problems of their life without ever doing anything to affect positive change, there's only so much of that you can take. I also believe that a "come to Jesus" is occasionally appropriate but if it makes no difference to the person it's directed at, it's time to move on. Some people are just happy being miserable or aren't happy unless they're miserable, they only know how to process and deal with the downer emotions so that's where they prefer to live. Hey if it works for them fine, but it's not a good friendship for a helper personality. My MIL is this way and it's taken me a LONG time to just accept that she really just wants you to listen to her not really help her because she's actually happy in her misery. I'm still honest with her but now I only offer advice/opinions when she actually asks for them. That would not be acceptable to me in a friendship because for me friendship is all about fun, learning/growing or a shared love of something. If I'm not getting at least one of those three things on a semi-regular basis from the friendship then it's time to let it go.

So YES it's perfectly appropriate to be the jerk that walks away.

[atskitty2]

She sounds exhausting...I don't think I could handle hanging out w her very often.
May I ask if this is one of your girlfriends or a platonic friendship?
My thought is that, if she has some sexual, emotional connection with you, she may unduely be seeking your approval. Because that's a bit how it sounds, that she is made uncomfy at the confrontation that you disagree-however nicely- and in her own mind, doesn't recognize that they're just opinions, not judgments against her opinions. That could be true whether you're lovers or not tho.

I've so many thoughts, I cannot articulate them succinctly...let me think a bit and come back to this.

[jen1447]

I'd appreciate that so much kitty, your input is always spot-on.

We're platonic, tho I think you may be onto something with the whole approval idea. In which case I kind of appreciate that she's standing up for herself rather than just humbly accepting my 'judgment.' lol why does this have to be so complicated? My sex girlfriends are so much easier!

[Trixareforkids]

My sex girlfriends are so much easier!

LOL, sex can smooth out a lot of rough edges

[effy2014]

Quite the thread. Your friend is using you as her therapist, her friend and her punching bag. I've been through those relationships as well.

Unless you know that she has another support group, I would not be so quick to teach her something by cutting off the relationship. She won't learn anything (she will blame you anyway -- it fits within her negative framework) and no one will be there to pick up the pieces. The best, and probably only thing, you can do to truly help her is to get her into therapy and encourage her to change.

That said, you are under no obligation to sustain a friendship that is overwhelmingly negative. Just evaluate whether to continue it or not based on how it is impacting you . . . not whether it will have some therapeutic benefit (or even harm) to her. That may seem harsh, but you are too far away (I assume as much since you Skype) to change her life or outlook. Try to get her to use the resources she needs to turn her life around and then make the decision whether you are getting enough out of the relationship for it to continue.

[atskitty2]

I've been chewing on this Jen...
Couple things in about a half dozen in my mind... but I'm short on time...
Is she really just one of those people who chats with no real expectation of sharing opinions and the mutual respect and acceptance that goes along with? Does she sort of talk to hear herself talk? I have a friend that way.

Codependency entered my mind.

I wish I could capture quotes on this mobile device, but a few things you said make me think that she needs a bit of caution in handling...a softer manner than you probably typically carry. I think you are way too strong for her, she isn't able to accept strong and well-founded opinions when hers are probably borne of much less consideration. It's a jolt of reality that maybe she IS wrong, or less progressed in her journey than she thought. So her defense is to become outwardly irritated or offended, frustrated or whatever will deflect the attention back onto you.

Honestly, I would continue to challenge her. I think she needs some serious self-evaluation and some friendly prodding toward new pathways may be what she needs. I would be gentle, but I'd push her toward the light

What you describe is a very sad woman: history of abuse, boundary & maybe some reality issues, low self-esteem but courage to make changes in there too.

At first I thought it was just time to ditch the friendship, but I think you're probably the only person in her life who's speaking the truth, in love, until she gets in counseling.
These seemingly unstable people, as I see her, are often the ones we walk on egg shells with.

I could be off base.
I also could be projecting my own experiences into this...it is so similar for me and my friend.

[jen1447]

I swear kitty, it's like you're some kind of sage.

Is she really just one of those people who chats with no real expectation of sharing opinions and the mutual respect and acceptance that goes along with? Does she sort of talk to hear herself talk? I have a friend that way.

Honestly, no. Like I said earlier, we mainly talk about her, but it's incidental. If I were to start in on a long thing about me, she would listen and be gracious.

What you describe is a very sad woman: history of abuse, boundary & maybe some reality issues, low self-esteem but courage to make changes in there too.

I think that's pretty much it, in a nutshell.

At first I thought it was just time to ditch the friendship, but I think you're probably the only person in her life who's speaking the truth, in love, until she gets in counseling.
These seemingly unstable people, as I see her, are often the ones we walk on egg shells with.

I guess I'll revisit all this with her then, but I still wonder how to go back to her. Do I gently tell her that she was full of crap in the religion argument? Point being I don't really want to just bow to her hurt feelings because I don't think that will actually help her. Also I dislike pretending on that kind of stuff because if you don't have the truth baseline to go from, things can go haywire pretty quick. (Like if I admit to some wrongdoing there, she can take bogus solace in not being right and maybe even use it to remind me when I'm 'wrong' in the future.) She's still waiting for me to say something btw, so making the reconciliation gesture will in itself be some form of taking blame. sigh, lol.