[catwoman]

It sounds to me that, that may just be her personality. If there's literally not much else to talk about besides her own problems or her life, I can understand that would get rather sickening and depressing. Perhaps you should cut back with speaking with her (not completely shut her out) and then try talking to her after a little time to see if anything's different. If it hasn't changed, then that may be your answer that she's just not the greatest friend (it takes two and both need to have an interest in each other's lives, and not all about themselves). Unfortunately she may find out the hard way that it's not all about her, but I'd give her a little space and a 2nd chance to see if that's just the way she is. You've only known her as someone who has been through hard times and sees things negatively, but perhaps she was like that before she had that all happen to her?

[catwoman]

I shouldn't say not a good friend... just not a good fit for a close friend for you. A person has to rid themselves of toxic people sometimes, even if you really don't want to.

[jen1447]

You are not obligated to encourage your friend in what you believe is self-destructive behavior. However, one of the causes and/or symptoms of depression is that the person becomes overly self-focused.

Your tough love approach allows her to remained focused on herself. "Poor me, another person doesn't understand me and has abandoned me."

That is you got on your high horse and lectured her about what she needs. It's a you, you, you perspective.

I'm not saying that a different perspective will make her better, but turning the focus onto yourself (rather than her) might help her see that her behavior hurts others, not just herself.

You say something like,

"Honey, you are one of my dearest friends and I have tried to be there for you for years. However, in spite of my efforts, I end up feeling helpless when nothing changes. I am expending myself for no good end because your needs are beyond my ability. I need to devote my life energy to productive pursuits. I've come to realize that this relationship is damaging me. It hurts me to see you stuck in pain. I hope you will find someone who has the ability to help. I'm really sorry."

She may never come to realize the happiness that comes from serving others. However, she may realize that being self-centered hurts the people she cares about and, therefore, "get over herself."

I have to admit this is pretty enlightening. I think most ideas filter thru our minds at some point or other - whether we hang onto them or not, but I don't think I had ever really considered this at all. Thanks Pollon.

It might be a bit tricky to change that now, since (by my own doing in large part) it's been all about her. So I might appear selfish on the outside lol and like I'm suddenly changing the terms. Also like I alluded to above somewhere, it's not really about this being bad for me ....it's bad for her, and I've gotten used to thinking about her welfare in all this. I don't get depressed myself talking to her, I get frustrated because the direction it often goes is counterproductive. I can deal with frustration. I'm pretty solid on my end. (And those of you who know me here probably know I'm not the sort to make a doormat out of myself. )

The bottom line is that I don't like this trait in her because it's bad for her.

[Ashlee T.]

It's definitely not one-sided - she's a good woman at heart. I do think tho that she's still taking liberties, as there's a lot of wiggle room in relationships between one-way and two-way. So it's something like she's a good woman who yet likes to be gloomy/doomy at strategic times and pass it off as some sort of worldly cynicism while ignoring the cop-out part. I should also explain that to be friends with someone, I don't really require any direct benefit. So when I say she's a good woman, I mean that objectively, not because I've profited in any way other than the most basic nature of friendship. She's my friend, period.

As to trying to find the medium ground, that's a struggle because when she gets that way it colors our conversations pretty dramatically. I've told her lots of times I don't agree with the outlook, and even gotten kind of edgy with her because I think it's a bit insulting to people who have genuine issues there, but I've never 'broken' her of it and never really expected to. I kind of figured I would hold my ground and hopefully her life circumstances would improve and she would come around. Now they have improved, but instead of riding the wave, she's selecting this failure attitude. That's really saddening to me.

So, is she the type of friend YOU are able to talk to about your own life? Or are your conversations primarily you listening to her talk about her doom and gloom situations? I ask because I've had both...friends I could talk to about anything and vice versa. Then friends who I was much more a friend to than any friendship I received in return. I did all the listening, all the advice giving, all the consoling. But when wonderful things would happen in my life (or bad things), they took a back burner and I often felt unable to even share them because they would be totally overshadowed by her and her life. Know what I mean? To me, that was not good friendship. That was me allowing myself to be emotionally drained by someone else. Good person or not good person, friendship has to be reciprocated to grow and last even if it is perhaps a bit lopsided where one person just has more drama than the other.

If the friendship is give/take, then the best thing to do in my opinion is to talk with her about it. But also acknowledge to yourself that this may be the type of person she is...and she may always be this way. She may always find negative situations to put herself into, and she may always dwell on them. Everyone needs someone to talk with....but there is little more frustrating in friendship that someone who continually seeks "counsel" but NEVER takes even a shred of the advice they are given, then they come back again and again basically asking for the same counsel. It becomes exhausting.

You're not wrong for moving on. It really is just a matter of what you want. If you WANT to remain friends with her, then talk with her about how you're feeling. If you feel it's best to just let it fizzle out and move on, then you've done the right thing by severing your ties.

[jen1447]

Ha, kitty's reply is so multifaceted I have to multi-quote!

This is a tough one jen...and I have a friend I'm in a similar situation with that I have been thinking about posting for opinions about. So...I have a lot of thoughts on this, because I've been thinking so much on it regarding my own friend.

I agree actually with the 3 posters above, as well. I think there's no right/wrong answer here, it's a matter of this situation being capable of going many ways.

My first question for you is, what is your intention here? Self-preservation (as in, it's exhausting & trying on your own sanity to listen to this chatter)? or to help her? or to make a point with her?
How interested are you, REALLY, in preserving (or salvaging) the friendship?
Those are questions you can ask yourself, not necessarily answer for me. At least, in my case...I gave up trying to help my girlfriend awhile ago. At this point for me, it's about not allowing her negative outlook & down times to intrude on my own mentality, which is hard when you care for someone. I cannot help her, she needs to want to change her life & thought processes. It's also important for me to maintain the friendship, because I do care for her & have reviewed the idea of ditching her, and I don't want to.

I'll answer - my intentions are to help her and make a point. As for preserving the friendship, honestly it wouldn't affect me that much if it ended. I think you know me pretty well kitty, but I'll explain for others' sake that this isn't because I'm hardass or uncaring (tho I can be a hardass lol). It's because I do it for her mainly. I'm not the needy sort, so if I stopped talking to a friend I'd move on pretty quickly. I'd be reluctant to do that moreso for her sake.

So, I think there's nothing wrong with what you did, but there are also other ways to handle it.
Now, when my girlfriend complains that we never go out, I point out to her that she has had opportunities to come out with me, and chose not to. I emphasize CHOSE!
When she starts whining about her divorce 10 yrs ago, and how she's only been on a couple dates...I remind her of the opportunities...

I've tried this hon, believe me, but she's pretty well indoctrinated on that attitude. In fact I've pointed out to her during her moments that she's choosing to be hopeless, but she just gets defensive and starts asking why I can't allow her her little comforts like that. I explain that I think they're harmful to her, she denies it (and maybe backs off of them a little), but then she's right back at it next time we talk. On and on it goes that way. If it sounds like I'm being preachy to her btw ....I don't know, maybe I am. But there are and have been long stretches of me just sympathizing. It's not all me jumping on her the moment she gets 'blue.'

(btw I've seen genuinely hopeless people, and it's a truly, profoundly horrible thing. Those are people that for example lost their entire families in car accidents or house fires and stuff like that ....they literally have no hope, nothing to live for. Running into a few bad turns with your aspirations for building a love life doesn't really qualify imo. I know romance disasters can be intensely traumatic as well, but her failures are more in line with not having a guy she likes hit on her and so on.)

I don't play along with her sadness any more and agree that it all sucks and how life could be so much better. I just point out that we have a choice to make it better every day.

It goes right over her head, but (here's the important part) I HAVE THE PEACE that I'm not playing into it. I have said some things that weren't very gentle, and that was no fun, but it needed said.

I can see how that would be nice.

I think you may have been able to take a step toward this before actually ditching her (If you didn't take that step) She was probably completely blind-sided, confused, doesn't understand it & just thinks, as someone above stated, that it's someone else who doesn't care about her...and the negative nelly goes round again...

I wouldn't say completely ....I've been down this road for quite a while with her now in both gentle and increasingly less gentle forms.

So, I am sure there's a lot more to this story, and I'm sure you do feel crappy. But don't. You did what you think is the best thing. It may be what she needed - maybe the only time anyone made a point of telling her that her attitude stinks & she's difficult to be around, etc.
Keep us posted Dear

Yeah lol there's always a lot more to the story, it's hard to condense a couple years' worth of human interaction into a paragraph or two.

[jen1447]

BD and catwoman, I'll get back to you on your comments. I'm just trying to take everything in order.

[jen1447]

How much time do you have?

These people will always Skype, facebook, email, whoa is me. However, you can make a huge change in their life, instead of tough love, to me that's saying I believe in something different, I am positive you are negative. I can't do this, so I'll claim tough love. These people get this all the time and they continue on their downward spiral.

What you have to weight up is her personality if she could "listen" and take advice or whether what ever you say, ever, will continue with the negativity. In other words she will never listen.

I've met people like this. With someone believing in them and a bit more time, they change.

Hence why I said how much time do you have.

Only you know if this person will continue on this negativity in life which I would suggest to you to stay away from.

Or, whether you can turn her with encouragement. In which case I would say do it. It does work and wonderful things do happen to them as a result.

People have their problems in life. If all others do is listen to them, off course all they will ever do is complain,

I don't really have any time constraints lol. I think she has the capacity to listen, tho I never really looked at it as just her 'getting the message' from me. I just figured that if I remained a positive influence and steered her a bit if she started to go off the rails, her life circumstances would naturally improve (they basically have to - she was in a deathly bad situation with her ex and now she isn't, not much way not to improve there) and eventually she'd basically be self-sufficient on the right path.

Anyway it's been about two years now and somehow she's more poorly off now than she's been since near the beginning. It makes me wonder if I haven't contributed to that in a way, and it's also what makes me not want to indulge any more of the self-pity stuff. Like we can't afford to now.

[jen1447]

Hmmm, this is a tough subject. I've dealt with depression on and off for the last 13 years of my life. It is by no means easy and it's really easy to get sucked into the pity party way of thinking. Sometimes you don't even know you're doing it because it just becomes a habit until someone points it out. I agree with Chandlers Wish. Have you talked to her about her negativity? Is there a way she'll listen if you put it all out there? It could be bad to shut her out, because that could just be adding fuel to the fire, but if she's a toxic friend, as if she's causing you to get depressed then I understand cutting back with her in your life. Is it possible when you do talk via Skype, you can just change the subject to something more cheery to try veer her thoughts away from the negativity? It's not your responsibility to make her happy though, but in my opinion, a real friend doesn't just give up 100% and says when you get your problems sorted out THEN call me.

I would explain to her that you will be there for her when she needs you, but her negativity is affecting your friendship and would appreciate if she'd try to be a little more positive. As the saying goes, Positive things happen to positive people. I just wouldn't turn my back on her completely, unless you 100% think she's never going to change. Then you need to rid toxic people from your life, but only if you feel it's hopeless.

I have cut several negative people from my life, but that's only because I knew it was their personality and not just depression or a bad time in their life. They weren't going to change, that is who they are, so I don't feel bad about that, but still say hi occasionally, but don't make it a point to meet up with them.

Thanks catwoman (lol it's funny to call you that - can't say CW because that's Chandler's Wish ). I think I ended up addressing many of your points already in other posts above.

I'll say again that this is less about me doing away with negative influences for my sake and more about ....well, tough love lol. I can give you another example of a time it worked -

Over a year ago she had taken up with a guy who it quickly became clear was going to be another disaster for her. He started by bringing recreational drugs into her home - she has two kids - and then that stepped up to hard drugs - crack cocaine. He also started quickly exhibiting other abuser traits, like tying her emotional well-being to his physical well-being, blaming and guilt-tripping, "why do you want to hurt me" type manipulation, and then the last straw was he tried to rape her while high. (She escaped, luckily.) Anyway, long before the last straw I had done the same thing - said that I couldn't make her ditch the guy but that I wasn't going to be there for her if he was in the picture. That was 'love' because I was using the only influence I had to try to save her, and it was 'tough' because in order to do that, I had to turn my back on her when she seemingly needed me most. But it worked, she got rid of the guy and said that my friendship was worth more to her. (He tried to rape her in an encore visit that I was none too pleased with either, but it was after the fact.) Anyway I've been around the block and I could see that whole thing coming like a freight train, but she couldn't. So I did that for her, tho I don't assume that I get to screen all her boyfriends or that she has to check with me first. It was just a disastrously dangerous exception that needed intervention.

I should point out too that while I'm no counselor or specialist in behavior, I understand that her past predisposes her to be drawn to those types of people. So while it may sound like she was plain dumb to get involved with this guy, it's more complicated than that.

[atskitty2]

Well, you're right. It is more complicated than that. She has a pattern here, choosing men that are bad for her. and what she probably needs is counseling. If her romantic life is her priority and she isn't content without the attention of a man, she needs someone to help her get to the bottom of that.
From all your updates , i think she needs more help than you can provide with "tough love", at least to make it long lasting...
She sounds well beyond my friend's discontent and melancholy.

[jen1447]

I'm spamming up the forum today, sorry.

It sounds to me that, that may just be her personality. If there's literally not much else to talk about besides her own problems or her life, I can understand that would get rather sickening and depressing. Perhaps you should cut back with speaking with her (not completely shut her out) and then try talking to her after a little time to see if anything's different. If it hasn't changed, then that may be your answer that she's just not the greatest friend (it takes two and both need to have an interest in each other's lives, and not all about themselves). Unfortunately she may find out the hard way that it's not all about her, but I'd give her a little space and a 2nd chance to see if that's just the way she is. You've only known her as someone who has been through hard times and sees things negatively, but perhaps she was like that before she had that all happen to her?

Oh she's definitely had hard times previously - many years under the oppression of her ex. I'm sure I'll talk to her again btw, it's just a question of when and under what circumstances. This wasn't an "I hate you" moment.

So, is she the type of friend YOU are able to talk to about your own life? Or are your conversations primarily you listening to her talk about her doom and gloom situations? I ask because I've had both...friends I could talk to about anything and vice versa. Then friends who I was much more a friend to than any friendship I received in return. I did all the listening, all the advice giving, all the consoling. But when wonderful things would happen in my life (or bad things), they took a back burner and I often felt unable to even share them because they would be totally overshadowed by her and her life. Know what I mean? To me, that was not good friendship. That was me allowing myself to be emotionally drained by someone else. Good person or not good person, friendship has to be reciprocated to grow and last even if it is perhaps a bit lopsided where one person just has more drama than the other.

If the friendship is give/take, then the best thing to do in my opinion is to talk with her about it. But also acknowledge to yourself that this may be the type of person she is...and she may always be this way. She may always find negative situations to put herself into, and she may always dwell on them. Everyone needs someone to talk with....but there is little more frustrating in friendship that someone who continually seeks "counsel" but NEVER takes even a shred of the advice they are given, then they come back again and again basically asking for the same counsel. It becomes exhausting.

You're not wrong for moving on. It really is just a matter of what you want. If you WANT to remain friends with her, then talk with her about how you're feeling. If you feel it's best to just let it fizzle out and move on, then you've done the right thing by severing your ties.

Yeah, she's very happy to hear about my details. I'm just not one to carry on about them for very long so inevitably it moves back to her. And I hear you on the rest, thanks.

Well, you're right. It is more complicated than that. She has a pattern here, choosing men that are bad for her. and what she probably needs is counseling. If her romantic life is her priority and she isn't content without the attention of a man, she needs someone to help her get to the bottom of that.
From all your updates , i think she needs more help than you can provide with "tough love", at least to make it long lasting...
She sounds well beyond my friend's discontent and melancholy.

Yeah. **sigh**