[tango1986]

Hello all,

Looking for a bit of advice, I'm unable to talk to anyone else about this because I would never speak to my friends or family about these issues (that will explain itself in due course). I'll try and keep this short, but it is complex.

My boyfriend and I have been together 5 years and have lived together on and off during those periods due to visa issues (we are from different countries). I was originally attracted to him because of his genuine character and honesty. And for the first two or three years, that never came into question. However during our most recent time apart, he engaged in an inappropriate online relationship with an ex-colleague. I say inappropriate because he was talking to her explicitly about his sex life, asking her for details about hers, pretending that our relationship was meaningless to him and that he was out looking for woman to cheat on me with. They had this relationship for 2 years, during which her name never once came up in conversation. From what I can tell the majority of that time it was an innocent friendship, and in the last 5 months turned intimate. The way he talked to her was vile and it was almost unbearable for me to read. Knowing he was capable of thinking and saying such things made me sick. Honestly that wound is still very fresh and there has been little resolve.

That being said, there is very little trust left in our relationship. Over time, I continued finding out additional information about their relationship that he had lied about or omitted, which naturally diminished the trust to virtually non-existent levels. I continually caught him in lies and am still not sure of what transpired between them. Despite all of this, I love him and accept that no one is perfect. I tried to let it go because their relationship was never about the two of them together, rather just an outlet to talk nasty about their sexual appetites. Even though for me, the "cheating boundary" was crossed, I decided to try and make it work with him.

Fast forward to present day, there are still very deep trust issues at hand. Well, last night I found 3 emails in his inbox for lingerie receipts from last year. Problem was, never in my time with him has he given me lingerie. I demanded that he call me immediately and what digressed afterwards was a very painful confession on his part that the lingerie was for himself. He admitted that he considered lying to me and telling me there was another woman to avoid the shame and disgust he felt with himself. I tried to be as gentle and understanding as possible. I ensured he felt safe in telling me this, but it is completely beyond my comfort zone.

My boyfriend says that he wears the lingerie because he is attracted to women in lingerie and therefore feels sexy in it himself, loves how it feels, and it turns him on. I simply cannot understand it, which is adding to my confusion. My problem is that because of the lack of trust and, in all honesty, total ignorance to this type of fetish, I don't understand it and therefore fear it. I am concerned there are underlying identity issues at hand that he is not being honest about, or that perhaps he would like to wear more than just the panties but has been too ashamed to do so - even in the privacy of his own home.

First, I don't know if this is something I can get past. I am not just unattracted by the idea, I feel completely unattracted to him now. My boyfriend has a much higher sex drive than I do and his sexual appetite has proven to be very destructive for our relationship. He has put his sexual urges ahead of his moral integrity and respect for me in the past and we have not worked through those issues yet. I feel ashamed of myself for not being more open and understanding of him, but I genuinely dislike the idea and am not sure if convincing myself otherwise is healthy. I know, for a fact, that I would never want to see him in them. I would prefer to never hear about it again, but I do not want to force him to hide this now that it's out in the open. I don't want him to feel ashamed of who he is around me and I wonder if there is some one better suited for him. I love him to death but I cannot see in any reality being attracted to a man in women's lingerie. He says he has not worn them for several months and has not felt the urge to; that he thinks it was an adolescent phase that he outgrew. But he has been doing this since he was 15, and is now 28, so my assumption is that this is lip service to preserve some dignity.

Second, like I mentioned, I can't be sure if this is an identity thing or a fetish. He has lied to me so much in the past to shelter me from the truth and his actions that I am completely paranoid that there is much more to this story and he is minimizing it in an attempt to save our relationship. I genuinely don't know who this man is anymore. This is the second time this year that I have found a completely hidden identity of his.

I know to many of you, this may seem like a silly thing to get hung up on, but I truly don't know if I can get past it. My boyfriend deserves some one who accepts him for who he is, just like I deserve some one I am genuinely attracted to. Any advice or comments would be welcomed.

[Pollon]

Your boyfriend has been in hiding for 13 years. Unfortunately, the power of secrets only grows the longer they remain secret and the more isolated the secret-holder is.

You've spend five years of your short life in a relationship that is now only at this stage--infidelity, no trust, no attraction, mismatched sex drive, and distance.

How much more of your life do you want to devote to repairing it? What stops you from ending it?

Don't hold on because he's the only one you've been with.

[effy2014]

Your last paragraph sums it up better than any of us could. The lingerie fetish, on its own, would be a different issue. But trust in a relationship is critical and it appears to have been irreparably lost. You have been in a relationship where you keep bracing yourself for the next shoe to drop. You are no longer attracted to him. You need to ask yourself if a further investment in time, therapy and understanding will be worth it.

My general advice is to work things through. With all that you have been through, it may be time to move on. Good luck to you.

[jen1447]

My initial reaction is that he doesn't seem terribly trustworthy, having lied so many times. I think that's the core issue here. The panties and all that are just extras. If you can't trust the guy, where can you possibly go with that?

It also sounds like he's really gone to a place you can't tolerate. We all have our redlines, so regardless of how objectively legit they are, they're still what they are. For example, I might be a bit more tolerant of deviant behavior, but I still have boundaries. It would bother me to date a murderer, and I'm pretty sure no amount of conditioning myself to be open-minded would change that. I think you should worry less about being justified with your boundaries and instead just accept that you have them and he crossed them. It's not a happy ending, but again, where else do you really go with that?

[Baboy]

Tango, you have received some good advice here, in my view.

I have been in a couple of different-country LDRs. They are relationships of what attorneys like to call uberrimae fidei - the ultimate in good faith. From what you relate, that has been lacking in your LDR for a long time.

You do not say how much of your 5-year relationship has been spent living together, or at least in close proximity. It sounds like not a lot. You say you "love him to death", but can you really articulate why? You have set out a litany of complaints, all of which appear to have some foundation, which supply plenty of reason not to love him - lies, deception, a sexual appetite you consider destructive of your relationship, and more. Coupled with that, you have found it necessary, apparently, so do some snooping - reading his emails, etc. I doubt he handed you the key to his inbox. You are carrying out a clandestine operation. An undeniable badge of lack of trust.

Now, the most recent blow to the relationship is the lingerie thing. As Jen observed, we all have our "redlines" (good term that one, Jen). Some women might not be overly concerned about a bf enjoying an occasional frolic in lingerie. To others it might seem perverted. It's what you feel that counts. You already recognize that striving to suppress your feelings on the subject might not be a remedy. You obviously find it distasteful and it has rendered you "completely unattracted to him". Do you really want to spend more years with someone whose revelation of character on more than one front has caused you so much angst? You are now wondering what else might be lurking in the weeds, of which you are at present blissfully unaware. I think I can predict to a certainty that for the foreseeable future you will be unwilling to drop your guard, maintaining your vigilance, continuing to snoop at every opportunity. Does that sound like a good time? Can you honestly foresee a time when you'll be able to dismiss all of this as a mere bagatelle and be unreservedly in love with this man and content with who he is and who you are when you are with him?

I have never thought it prudent to abandon a relationship with alacrity when the first bit of adversity emerges. Not if there is truly more than just a vestige of love and respect remaining. In the situation as you have portrayed it, the relationship has been fatally wounded.

[tango1986]

Hello everyone, thank you for your responses and feedback, it has been useful for me to mull over.

No, this is not my first relationship - I have had several serious, loving relationships as well as the usual "fillers" in between. What has made me stay is that, although it is difficult to see when he is only painted in his worst light, he has a heart of gold. I have never met anyone as generous and kind, and that really attracts me to him. He has loved me unconditionally all these years, and I have been far from perfect myself. I stay because he is my best friend and I genuinely can't imagine my life with anyone else. I stayed because, before this, I was attracted to him and I believed these were kinks that simply needed smoothing over.

Effy, you hit the nail on the head. In the last 6 months I feel like I haven't been able to breath, trying to constantly brace myself for the next surprise. It is exhausting.

We have talked extensively and exhausted all points of conversation and there seems to be no way around this. It is out of my comfort zone. I just can't get past how silly it is that -- THIS -- is what ends our relationship. Different undergarments. I feel silly.

[tango1986]

Baboy, thank you for your reply. It hit home on a different level altogether and I am sure I'll re-read it many times.
Of course you're correct in much of your advice, and I'm sure this would be what my friends and family would tell me. It's what I'm telling myself and trying to ignore. It's finding the courage to face these facts and move past this that will require some gusto.

[Baboy]

Tango,

I do not see it as "different undergarments" as sabotaging the relationship. That may have been the last straw, but from the way you set it out, much has to do with what has remained hidden and the doubt about what more might still be coming. It is the constellation of factors that I see bringing you to the end. Taken individually, any single one of the matters that has concerned you might be forgiven, overlooked, accepted. But collectively, they are overwhelming of your feelings of love and trust.

The generous and kind man with the heart of gold that you describe (and whether a man with a heart of gold would indulge in a secret online relationship strikes me as a doubtful proposition) might be good best friend material, but bf/husband I am not so sure. I am judging by my own standards, not yours. I do not profess that my standards should be accorded any higher weight than yours. You sought opinions and, like the others above, I have tried to give you as balanced and fair an assessment as I can.

But Tango, you know you and you know him (sort of). No one here can decide what's best for you. Those of us who have seen fit to respond to that which is really the skimpiest of descriptions of a matter with a long and complex history, are tending to see things in a rather pessimistic light. In the end, only you can judge what you are prepared to accept and what you think will serve your own best interests.

[effy2014]

Good luck Tango. You have a lot of courage. Best of luck.

[Baboy]

Tango, I think our last 2 posts crossed. You got one in while I was still writing.

Let me share with you a personal experience.

In one of my 2 LDRs, I was in a situation quite analogous to yours. I had been lied to, trust was eroded and lying in tatters, the relationship was stressful. Yet I hung on because, like you, I "could not imagine my life with anyone else." That woman was like a drug to me. I had to have it at all costs. I stayed with reckless indifference to my own welfare. I knew was not exactly happy with the status quo, but the thought of ending things seemed far worse. Better a little unhappiness than a total loss. There were just enough highs with this person to keep me hooked. So I was willing to convince myself that the lows were not so bad, and that all relationships have their flaws. I became a master at self-deception. The old "if you can't lick 'em, join 'em". If this woman was deceiving me in some matters, I'd deceive me too. It worked for quite awhile.

In my case, like you, I would certainly never have wanted to open up to friends or family. Why not? Because I knew exactly what the universal advice would be - get out, you fool! The same advice would have obtained, I am sure, had I turned to a forum such as this. Not that there were many such places around in those days. I knew in my heart that I was not doing myself any good, but I hung in there long after the relationship's "best before" date lay well astern. To do anything else was unthinkable. Every time I thought to end it, I would devise an excuse not to.

So how did it all turn out? Well, the day finally came, not with high drama, or some great epiphany. I simply came to the realization one day that I was no longer in love. That was something I had not believed could happen. But it did. Finally, the cumulative effects of all the abuse I had endured snuffed out the love. I was able to go in peace. It was not the painful experience I had dreaded unleashing, since the love had died a natural death.

Tango, in your case I think that sufficient remnants of love and your dreams of what might have been remain in your heart that to bring it crashing down is a grim prospect indeed. I see some of my former type of rationalizing at play, eg, silly to end it over undergarments. It becomes necessary to engage in revisionist thinking and to try to see the difficulties in a more benign light. I'll not fault you for that. That is something I was long able to do with consummate skill. I could put a positive spin on anything. In hindsight, yeah, I should have bailed out sooner. However, my intransigence and failure to do so wrought no long-term harm. Indeed, staying longer in a moribund relationship (albeit not then recognized as such) allowed me to walk away without my heart being torn asunder as I had feared. Perhaps your time has not yet come.