[ItsASecret]

Its posts like feminist ben's that make me want to give up on men, and start collecting cats... but then read ones like ocularone's posts and I feel that there are men out there that can love AND be sexually interested in one woman.

100% agree.

[FeministBen]

Hahaha, I wonder at how genuine posts such as Ocularone's are. It's the sort of thing some of my mates say when they're out on the pull. Then say very different things when regailing me with the details the following day.

[stressed]

I do believe men have an underlying desire to have sex with a wide array of women, however, moreso than women. Sleeping with lots of women is viewed as an achievement for a man, it's a deep-seated confirmation of masculinity. Their own worth is confirmed by many women choosing to sleep with them.
Evolutionary speaking, there is certain an argument to be made that there are more benifits for a man to sleep with lots of women - there is less investment and more probability of fathering many children. A women who sleeps around still only mothers one child as a result and risks losing a provider for her and the child if she's caught.
Now I'm sure there's plenty counter-arguments, you can argue and counter-argue near enough any point but looking at it even empirically, men love to put it about. Ask any man who isn't hedging his bets on sleeping with you or someone near to you - it's in our nature to desire sex with lots of different women.

Whenever "evolution" comes into the picture I just can't bother reading the rest of the paragraph. I'm sorry...

Eh, well I'm not sure how that proves me wrong. You've not proved to me you're one of those women that don't think porn is a big deal and have a very negative attitude towards it and their SOs watchin it. Tbh, your various posts have convinced me of the opposite. I don't want to get personal but in all honesty, considerin your views and attitude towards the pastime I can understand why he wouldn't be overly keen to embark on that particular hobby with you.

I don't need to prove that to you, I'm telling you how it is and how it was. I don't talk about porn today the way I do just because I woke up one day and thought "porn? that's devil's work!". Maybe you have to think of the reasons why they led me into talking about it in the way I do before you judge me as an anti-porn person.

This is actually a separate issue I feel but it's not as simple as that. Equality is a nice idea but as people we're not all equal. We have different strengths and weaknesses, different values and beliefs, different aspirations and goals and equality doesn't work if you ignore everyone's differences and try to force us all to be the same way. We alter our expectations of individuals depending on things like gender, their character, their wishes and abilities.

That reminds me: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...

What you've got to decide is 'how important is this to you?' Is it more important than your relationship? What box are you going to put this behaviour in and what outcome are you willing to choose?

This is said in a better way than advising women to let their men do whatever they can because "it's their nature".
You know, within certain religions men are allowed to have more than one wives because they do believe that men just cannot be with one woman and women are not equal to men. Just mentioning it...

Hahaha, I wonder at how genuine posts such as Ocularone's are. It's the sort of thing some of my mates say when they're out on the pull. Then say very different things when regailing me with the details the following day.

Perhaps you should be a little bit more open minded when it comes to other people's views and accept that there are people who like or believe the complete opposite of what you do. It's your attitude of "this is how things are, accept them or leave them" that made me answer you in the tone I did, not your views.

[FeministBen]

Whenever "evolution" comes into the picture I just can't bother reading the rest of the paragraph. I'm sorry...


I don't need to prove that to you, I'm telling you how it is and how it was. I don't talk about porn today the way I do just because I woke up one day and thought "porn? that's devil's work!". Maybe you have to think of the reasons why they led me into talking about it in the way I do before you judge me as an anti-porn person.

Well, the only reason I spoke of evolution, the issue of prooving me wrong and your 'anti-porn' stance was because you brought them into the conversation. But I'm happy to leave them, I'm not demanding anything from you, I just like lively debate.

This is said in a better way than advising women to let their men do whatever they can because "it's their nature".
You know, within certain religions men are allowed to have more than one wives because they do believe that men just cannot be with one woman and women are not equal to men. Just mentioning it...

I agree that people have the abilities to rise above their innate nature. But we both know it's not as simple as that.

In regards the actual question though, I think I recall you mentioning some issues with your SO and porn yourself. How important do you feel an issue it is within a relationship? Is it something you can accept for the good of the relationship or will it always be an issue between you?

You don't need to answer, I'm just trying to get a feel for where you're comin from.

Perhaps you should be a little bit more open minded when it comes to other people's views and accept that there are people who like or believe the complete opposite of what you do. It's your attitude of "this is how things are, accept them or leave them" that made me answer you in the tone I did, not your views.

In case I've not been clear enough, I do accept I could be totally wrong in all my assertions, no matter how certain I might be of them. And as for matters of personal taste or opinion, everyone is completely entitled to their stance.

I just think the issue seems to be causing a lot of mess within relationships. One side has to give or they will always be at conflict with each other. If so many women are having trouble getting their men to WANT to change, the next logical step would be to change themselves rather than continue screaming at a wall.

[Fallen1]

I just think the issue seems to be causing a lot of mess within relationships.

Exactly. This should be reason enough to leave it out of a relationship.

[Hopeless Dork]

Exactly. This should be reason enough to leave it out of a relationship.

Here. Here.

If its causing problems in an otherwise happy relationship, wouldn't the obvious solution be the absolute most rediculous notion for the man to consider? Seems that way.

I'm sure I'm not the only girl thats had her boyfriend say "porn isn't important to me" "I don't even care if I don't watch it"... yet, they still do. "I didn't know it would hurt your feelings." K, well now you know. But mmm hmm they still do it.

I love my boyfriend with all my heart, we have a relationship that feels like a dream come true in every other aspect than his occasionally porn use. So I concede and try to get over it. It still hurts me sometimes. I don't know how to make it not hurt. And to be honest I am getting resentful of being the one that has to learn to deal.

[stressed]

Well, the only reason I spoke of evolution, the issue of prooving me wrong and your 'anti-porn' stance was because you brought them into the conversation. But I'm happy to leave them, I'm not demanding anything from you, I just like lively debate.

I like the debate as well, there's nothing personal at all
If something comes out as "too heated" it's towards a point of view or idea, but not you in person in any way.

In regards the actual question though, I think I recall you mentioning some issues with your SO and porn yourself. How important do you feel an issue it is within a relationship? Is it something you can accept for the good of the relationship or will it always be an issue between you?

You don't need to answer, I'm just trying to get a feel for where you're comin from.

My case is slightly more complicated. My SO wouldn't have sex with me for weeks, or months in the beginning, saying he just had no sexual thoughts, his sex drive was low and so on. After many months, after noticing a certain behavioral pattern, I checked his computer to see what's going on. I found that he browsed porn when I wasn't at home, that he was going daily on a dating website to look at women (and men, out of curiosity, as he said), chatted and such. Even then, I didn't tell him to stop with porn, just with the dating site and chatting, but he said he'd stop with the porn anyway because it looked bad since we didn't have sex.

Then, half a year later, I was sexually molested (managed to get away though) by a guy at my language class. Of course I told him right away and we filed a police report against the guy. 3 days after the incident I had an important meeting with the school's director, to explain to her what happened. My SO had to go to work that afternoon (the meeting was at 10 a.m.) and said I'd better go with his brother and not him, as he's not good at that (bs, and I knew it). When I came home he said he thought about what had happened to me and decided to take a few days off work to support me. When he got back to work, days later, I checked his computer to see what he was doing that day I had the meeting. He was watching porn. That was the moment when I totally flipped out and had a huge fight with him over porn. I even asked him if the thought of me being nearly raped only days before turned him on. His only answer was "it's normal, don't ever talk like that about me again" and such. I told him to stop with it until I'd be comfortable about it again and that of course I have nothing against masturbation or porn, but while things go crazy and the sex life is below average I don't want any porn around.

As of today, our sex life is slowly improving, I don't check his computer anymore, I don't care if he watches porn or not, as long as he's conscious about my needs and feelings. I've made the decision that my state of mind and physical needs are more important to me than be worried about whether he masturbates or not. If I have these two, and know that I come first regarding his physical needs, as he comes first when it comes to mine, then he can do as he pleases. But if he makes me feel that I'm not enough for him, then I will react.

I'm sorry this has been long, I just wanted to explain. It's not that I'm against porn for either men or women, but I do think that when one starts feeling hurt by it then the other has to take it easy for a while. It's not worth hurting your SO over masturbation and by taking a break from it doesn't mean that your SO will never be alright with it again. There just has to be a balance so that both can have the life they want.

I just think the issue seems to be causing a lot of mess within relationships. One side has to give or they will always be at conflict with each other. If so many women are having trouble getting their men to WANT to change, the next logical step would be to change themselves rather than continue screaming at a wall.

I personally don't think that changing, or cutting down, on masturbational habits is such a huge change, especially not for the worse. I used to be very sexual in the beginning of my relationship but since I was always turned down masturbation was the only solution. But then I sat down and thought "am I happy this way? Is that what I want? To live with a man I love and only get my fix by myself? I don't want that", so I tried to work on the actual problem, see what I could do to improve the sex life for both. It did turn out that he had fears, that porn was the safe option where he didn't have to perform, that he was used to that lifestyle as single. As I said, I don't know if he watches now and I don't want to know, I don't think he does anyway, but I do know that our sex life has become way, by tons, better since the arguments we've had over porn and the discussions over our sex life. Now, I'm not saying that no porn necessarily means better sex, but I do find that discussion, and learning about what your SO wants, making him/her feel comfortable about things s/he thinks are too "strange" to try and only watches them in porn instead, is a huge step into keeping a balance.

If I come across as "anti-porn" at times it's because reading certain lines revives the feeling I had the past few years, when I didn't understand what was going on and all I got back was "it's what men do, it's only normal". But I don't consider myself as anti-porn at all. If the relationship's sex life is good and both feel content and adequate then there are fewer chances that porn will become an issue. It's also very important that when it does become an issue, then the one who watches porn has to explain why, understand the worry and be patient with it. As if it's just "watching for fun" it can wait until the problem is solved. But if he starts right away with "it's only normal, you're crazy" then the problem will only worsen.

[Guest]

Exactly. This should be reason enough to leave it out of a relationship.

Or to choose someone who wants no part of it.

[Guest]

And to be honest I am getting resentful of being the one that has to learn to deal.

Bluntly - you have 2 choices then.

Become bitter.

Or leave.

[Fallen1]

Or to choose someone who wants no part of it.

I'm going to assume that you mean this goes for both men and women? Granted there may not be many cases where the woman is the one that watches porn and the man is upset over it. I just don't see why it's always the women that have to "get over it and deal". Why is it that a man never is expected to "get over it and deal"?

I feel the same about a woman and her toy(s). If it's something that is upsetting to her s/o then she needs to give them up also.