[ItsASecret]

I also don't have great self-esteem; I was bullied in school and while my husband is usually pretty supportive he does crack a lot of jokes. I think I'm afraid that he'll say something offhandedly and not realize what it meant to me, even though it hasn't happened yet. I'm not sure I'll ever open myself up completely, because of what I went through in high school, and even though I know that's rough for someone else to understand and it wasn't even sexually-related bullying, it's not something that's easy to get over.

I am the exact same way. I was teased and made fun of for all of my grade school years and now the slightest comment will make me shut down and feel incredibly embarrassed even if the comment was in no way meant to be mean. As a result I have extremely low self-esteem and a very very poor body image so being the center of attention, like rubbing myself to orgasm for my bf, is not my thing. Sure I can rub but I am the same in the sense that I won't fully open myself up. My bf knows that I will not orgasm if I am rubbing but I will let him watch me anyway but I am trying to make the effort to get over my insecurities so that he can have some new things every once and awhile.

[Roland1919]

"Roland I almost can't believe what I am reading!! Put some thought into where you are now. You have a wife with whom you have a great sex life after 10 yrs. Do you love her? What special things does she do to make you feel loved? Do you have children? Is she a good Mom? How about your home family job? Ten years and sex is still good, you are both doing something right. You are fortunate to have a wife who wants to stay sexually connected with her husband.

So, lets see if I have this right - the woman you love has had a painful experience in her past, a wound so to speak. Seems to me that a loving spouse would comfort and sooth his wife and help her get through the experience and put it behind her. If I had an experience like that, avoid picking at the wound and negating the effect that it has had on her life. You express quite dramatically to have her do this is "your biggest turn on" and yet it is the seat of great pain for your the woman you love. I am certain knowing that she would this act brings her pain as she has told you you could not possibly enjoy your self coercing her to do it could you?

Here are some things for your consideration sex in a loving relationship is about mutual satisfaction; which is more important - your craving to see your wife perform or her well being. Put another way, do you love her enough to forgo your pleasure so that she does not feel pressured to relive a traumatic experience. When you think about it, you could not possibly derive any sexual pleasure out of watching her, knowing that it reminds her of a traumatic event.

With so much going for you and your loving wife of 10 years, why would you want to destroy it by insisting upon opening and reopening a wound that your wife suffered? I don't know her, never saw her, but I feel like I want to hug and comfort her, since she does not have anyone to do that for her.

I don't know if this is true in your marriage but I would certainly think about it - when one partner pressures another to do a sexual thing that is for their pleasure only with out consideration of mutual pleasure, the person pressured may gives in to please (its usually by the woman who gives in to some driving fantasy for her husband) but will be filled with resentment. Resentment may kill a woman's sex drive. After all, what is in it for her, pain, you want to make your sexual activities good for her too don't you? I am certain if the tables were turned.... well I leave up to you to put yourself in your wife's place.

You have a good thing going for you - don't mess it up. Don't take your wife for granted, think about her feelings and not just the sexual pleasure she can bring you. I think you need to step back and let your wife know how much you appreciate and love her. She may not be too sure. I hope you will consider this in the sprit that it was written, an attempt to help you see what you do have - not what you don't."

I think you have misunderstood me. This act is not a 'seat of great pain' for her anymore than any other 'act' she did with the guy that broke her heart. I understand where you are coming from but someone else made a pretty good point. She also had sex with this person but will have sex with me. I am sure there are a lot of other things they did that we do. Imagine if your favorite sex act was oral (I am guessing there are some heads nodding in agreement here) and your husband had done that for the first time with a women that hurt him. Now he says he can't do oral without it reminding of her so he won't ever do that. I know that may be a bit of an extreme example but maybe it will give you some insight on how I feel about this.

I also want to make it clear that there has never been any pressure put on her to do this. It has only come up a few times in our 10 years and when she showed she didnt' want to I imediately dropped it. Only once has she very briefly told me that was something she did with him so she didn't want to. Since then our relationship has grown so much closer so I thought I would try again recenlty. It was very subtle and I again dropped it without any discussion. Believe me, I have spent many hours putting myself in my wife's place and I don't want her to do something she is uncomfortable with. I do know what a great thing I have with her which is exactly why I have buried it within myself and don't try to talk her into it. I guess I was hoping that these boards would give me some insight and ideas and they have. I appreciate your input as well as everyone elses.

[Roland1919]

Thanks for the input Fae and Itsasecret. It is helpful to know that other women are a little uncomfortable with this and its not just a her and me thing.

[Allie602]

Guilt?

I think you have misunderstood me. This act is not a 'seat of great pain' for her anymore than any other 'act' she did with the guy that broke her heart. I understand where you are coming from but someone else made a pretty good point. She also had sex with this person but will have sex with me. I am sure there are a lot of other things they did that we do. Imagine if your favorite sex act was oral (I am guessing there are some heads nodding in agreement here) and your husband had done that for the first time with a women that hurt him. Now he says he can't do oral without it reminding of her so he won't ever do that. I know that may be a bit of an extreme example but maybe it will give you some insight on how I feel about this.

I also want to make it clear that there has never been any pressure put on her to do this. It has only come up a few times in our 10 years and when she showed she didnt' want to I imediately dropped it. Only once has she very briefly told me that was something she did with him so she didn't want to. Since then our relationship has grown so much closer so I thought I would try again recenlty. It was very subtle and I again dropped it without any discussion. Believe me, I have spent many hours putting myself in my wife's place and I don't want her to do something she is uncomfortable with. I do know what a great thing I have with her which is exactly why I have buried it within myself and don't try to talk her into it. I guess I was hoping that these boards would give me some insight and ideas and they have. I appreciate your input as well as everyone elses.

Yes - I see what you mean with your example of the oral sex. Oral sex is the only way I can have an orgasm, so I would not be compatible with someone who could not give me a clitoral orgasm so the relationship would never get off the ground. Anything that denies one person from ever getting an orgasm in a relationship is not a relationship. I don't see how this is analogous to your situation but I may have missed it.

I don't feel comfortable with masturbating in front of my partner, I consider it something private just as I consider his masturbation to erotic material a private matter. I don't know why but, I just want to touch myself in private. If my partner insisted, I would feel uncomfortable and resentful. My resentment would come out of a feeling that I have to put on a porn show just to please him - he may like a porn shows but it is not what I signed up for.

I have to stand by what I said - I think you are rationalizing when you advance the analogy to her having sex in this bad relationship. It does not matter what you think but, what she feels. You are using reason and this has nothing to do with reason, it is emotional.

I am going to call you on a statement you made about having to bury this feeling - I don't know - it so dramatic - is there nothing in your relationship with your wife, anything that she has done that makes you so happy that you can give up this idea with more grace?

You sound as if you have been hard done by and there is a subtle hint of trying to make her feel guilty about her decision. This is a common ploy used by a person who is trying to pressure another. I'm using reason here but do you really think this raises to the level of the angst you are expressing? In all fairness to your wife, give it up gracefully.

Be careful not to make her feel resentment towards you, she may if she feels pressure or if she senses that you are trying to reason with her and she is asking you to feel and understand.

[Roland1919]

It does not matter what you think but, what she feels. You are using reason and this has nothing to do with reason, it is emotional.

That about sums it up to me. I almost forget that I don't have thoughts, feelings, etc... of any importance. What I read here (and I could be misunderstanding this) is that my feelings don't matter and hers do. I am glad that I know that she doesn't feel this way.

"I don't feel comfortable with masturbating in front of my partner, I consider it something private just as I consider his masturbation to erotic material a private matter. I don't know why but, I just want to touch myself in private. If my partner insisted, I would feel uncomfortable and resentful. My resentment would come out of a feeling that I have to put on a porn show just to please him - he may like a porn shows but it is not what I signed up for."

This is this kind of feedback I was looking for and I appreciate your input.

The rest of this post translates in men talk to "drop it you sick perverted jerk, you are lucky she will even have sex with you in the first place".

[Allie602]

Just as an aside, ladies NEVER tell a current partner about the sexual things you have done with a former partner. I have made this stupid mistake once and lived to regret it. I mentioned to a guy that I was in a trusted long term relationship with that I had tried something and did not like it. Several months latter, he started to ask me to try it with him and things went along the lines of the OP here. He could not seem to understand why I did not want to try with him something that I had tried and did not like. I eventually left the relationship for other reasons but I learned a valuable lesson, and never repeated my mistake. What I did in former relationships has nothing to do with what my taste happen to be at present. People try lots of things in life, and decide what they like and don't like.

The idea that I should be made to feel guilty because I made a choice that I have every right to make but that effected his "sexual satisfaction" as he said, made me angry. There was some element this conflict that made me feel that he objectified me or at lest my body. My head and feelings were essentially nullified because he had some fixation on a body part that I had no interest in sharing with him. After that unpleasant experience, I have never felt free to talk about past experiences or fantasies.

I guess that is what I am trying to say here, this man's wife has feelings connected to her body and no matter what his fantasies or fixations are, she still retains ownership and has the final say. You can use all of the rationalizations you want, but it comes down to being seen as a whole person and not a collection of body parts with a head and heart somewhere in the distance. So that's my 2 pence.

[Roland1919]

Well it is a good thing you have a healthy attitude towards men. Do you think it is possible that your callous attitude towards men is what caused them to treat you this way? How can you expect someone to love you if you resent him before you ever even meet him? You do realize that men are PEOPLE TOO!!!! Until you learn to step back and see ALL PEOPLE AS PEOPLE you will never be happy.

[Fallen1]

Just a reminder before it gets out of hand ............. let's keep it civil.

[WildChild]

That about sums it up to me. I almost forget that I don't have thoughts, feelings, etc... of any importance. What I read here (and I could be misunderstanding this) is that my feelings don't matter and hers do. I am glad that I know that she doesn't feel this way.

The rest of this post translates in men talk to "drop it you sick perverted jerk, you are lucky she will even have sex with you in the first place".

Roland,
I don't think that is what is being said but I understand that is what you are hearing right now. Remember we aren't speaking man talk - you are talking to women. Your feelings do matter, your needs matter, so do those of the woman in your life. I appreiciate that you are able to identfy what you are hearing and express it because that allows better dialog.

What many women (I'm in this group) have encountered repeatedly are men who don't really care what a woman needs or wants, just so long as they get what they want. Many of us have been so conditioned to be givers that we don't know how to neogotiate and create a balance between what we need and what our partner needs and so we give and give, without getting, until we either give up, have a melt down or blow up.

It's often difficult for responding posters to separate their own feellings and experiences from those of the person who started the thread. We all draw on our own experience and observations to formulate our responses.

One thing I think you are getting here is a picture which we have often seen here at WH, of how many people, women and men, feel negated and unheard in both their relationships and their efforts to communicate. I'm healing from series of negative situations, the most recent being nearly two years of no kissing or foreplay and very infrequent sex (he is marvelous at all of it when he choses) why? I don't know. Something to do with a past relationship, he just shut down. I tried to be loving and patient and give time to see that I really loved him but finally had to lovingly let go, we are still good freinds. This came on the heels of years in a sexless marriage where I was his caregiver through several significant health disasters. (I'm a very sexual woman) We've all had our challenges and they flavor our responses.

As with all advice you have to sift through and see if there is anything you can use or that gives you a little better insight and use that and disguard the rest. I have an idea that what really bothers you with this situation with your wife, may be less that she isn't comfortable with this activity and more that she did do it with someone else. Of course my perception is colored by my recent experience with a man who obviously has a great deal of experience kissing and making love with women but who chose (after proving his skill) not to share that to me. Believe me, I understand the pain in that and so do many of the women here.

People's comfort zones are tricky things. Certainly I've varied on this, a nonsexual example from me is that I found myself completely unable to bring myself to jump off rock edge into a swimming hole a few years ago, little kids and elderly people were happily doing it - I couldn't bring myself to do it. But in my work I do far more dangerous things daily; I go into vacant houses having no idea who or what may be in there, I get deep into crawl spaces, roof rafters, up on roofs, have cut tree branches from around live power lines with a chain saw while standing on a roof (I get a pro for that now). I muck around in possibly unstable structures or worse, places vacated by obviously unstable people. None of that really bothers me but I couldn't, having fun, leap into a pool of water. There is no rhyme or reason to it, especially since I've done that kind of thing before from much higher places into much iffier pools. But you know, the more other people tried to egg me on, the less able to do it I felt.

I don't know how you can resolve this. All I offer is my concern that the more you focus on this, the more likely that she will move into a defensive position and start feeling uncomfortable with other things as well. I could offer a lenghty (and people here know I can do it LOL) observation on the societal and religious messages that have shaped men and women in particular into warped thinking and behaviors, especially where sex is concerned. To many of us here it sounds like you have an eviable relationship but what my look like the tinest anthill to us may seem to be the giant termite mound to you. The only thing I can think of that may help you both open up to each other more would be to explore some of the sensory awakening and intimacy practices of tantra and similar practices. For example the book, The Art of Sexual Ecstacy, offers many sexual and non sexual ways of increasing intimacy which may help you both open up to each other more.

[Allie602]

No Roland I don't mean that at all. I really appreciate that you are sticking around and continuing the discussion, It helps me and I am certain many other woman. Please know that I am not trying to be hostile. I am on the site because I have had conflicts with my partner about what would be mutually satisfying and I cannot seem to discuss it with him openly. At lest here there is a brave soul who gives me the benefit of very much needed feedback.

I am saying to a bunch of strangers what I could never discuss with a man in person for some reason. Some of my experiences with men have made me weary, I don't know what they are really thinking, they don't really say. I interpret their behavior based on how I feel, and sometimes I don't feel so good. I have at times felt that no matter what I do that it is never good enough or even enough period. I hard time understanding why it is so difficult for some men to give up a sexual fixation when their partner is not interested. Makes me feel like I have no say no feelings or maybe he would be happy if there were no real person with choices connected to my body. I have a constant anxiety in my relationship that my partner will come to me with some new idea that he wants to try and if I say no then I fear the pressure and unpleasantness. In the past, there has been talk about compromises, his feelings, how much do I really love, me being adventurous enough to satisfy him, my attitude towards sex, problems in my childhood and on and on.

I just don't understand why so much is expected of me to prove my love, to keep his interest, to spice things up so he does not get bored, to do things exactly according to some script. I sometimes what to say "hey it's me, remember, we are friends, we are there for each other, do you still see me or just the sexual pleasure that you get". It has not always been fun for me and I am trying to work it out. I know that I have a right to do what I fell is comfortable for me.

We have two people with feelings; whose feelings are the most important, neither they both have equal value. The over riding principal that should guide the decision making is that no one should ever do something that they do not want to do, no matter what the other person feels. Many women are talked into humiliating and damaging sexual encounters with partners who use the arguments of their feelings etc. Each persons feeling in a relationship is important but each persons actions are their own, they have to live with the consequences of their actions. I use my feelings exclusively to decide what I am comfortable with doing, never my partners alone if it is contrary to my own. I have to live with me long after the "feelings" a man has for me goes away.