[Joe77]

Good afternoon, ladies. I hope it's ok that a man has poked his head inside the girls' den for a moment.

I'm 34, married 5 years to a great woman. We have 2 boys, age 3 and 10 months. Sex in our relationship has gone from infrequent and average to extremely rare and mediocre. I think the issue breaks down a couple different ways.

The frequency I get. Kids, both of us working, sheer exhaustion, dishes, laundry etc. I'm myself not in the mood as much. She is also on a minipill which can have an effect, but she was on the pill pre-kids and her drive didn't decline much...plus, when she went OFF the pill when we were concieving #2, we did it more for the baby of course but she never seemed any more "into it"...as if it was only for the purpose of the baby.

The other part is communication. We communicate pretty well about "routine" and "life/family" stuff like where we want to go on vacation, what color should we paint the bedroom, finances (it's good we agree on this area, a lot of couples don't) etc. Our overall life goals and values match up, we're similar politically, etc. Which is why we're married and compatible.

Then there's the sex. She has never been very open about sex and communicating about it, and the sex itself is pretty bland. I'm not just worried about me, so before the claws come out bear with me. Sex used to be about twice a week when we were long-distance (so 2 times during our weekends together) and sometimes 3, then 2 - 3 times throughout the week when we married, now, maybe once every 6 weeks. The baby waking up in the middle (not from noise, just our bad luck) has cut us short the last couple times.

I've been with a total of only 6 women sexually, 3 of whom I had vaginal intercourse with. None of them had a problem telling me what they liked or didn't like, nicely usually but I got the point. All of them I was able to give an orgasm to one way or another. Except my wife.

Now, before I continue, I posted this on another board, and some of the responses suggested a lot of this is my problem and self esteem issues, I get that. Still, I'd like more feedback.

In the beginning, we would usually kiss a few minutes, then undress. She might attempt a bj for a few seconds, literally, never getting me even close to orgasm. I'd go down on her, sometimes for a few minutes. Sometimes she'd say a few things or coo a little, once she even told me I was pretty good at it. A little foreplay, touching each other, kissing various body parts, etc, then I'd penetrate her vaginally. With me on top, I c** within 2 minutes, always have. With her on top I can go 10 - 15 minutes, I think it has to do with the set of muscles I use.

As a side note she's always been a rather boring, uninspired kisser. I love kissing, and I was OK with the fact that she doesn't seem into it, but I think it might be a symptom of an overall aversion to sex.

ONE TIME she told me she came with her on top but I'm pretty sure it was an ego boost only to make me feel good. This was in the first 3 months of our relationship.

By the time we got married 18 months later, we had already devolved to missionary only. No more oral, no more her on top. She wouldn't touch my penis with her mouth at all and rarely even with her hand. She would "let me" do oral a few seconds and then motion or say for me to climb on top. Almost seemed at times like she just wanted it over with. Any time I asked her "how it was" she only replied "it was fine" or if I apologized for climaxing too fast "it was fine" was her response. "Fine" to me is basically an answer that says "neither bad nor good" or "Just OK/mediocre" meaning, room for improvement. I have decided to stop asking her since I know that itself is probably a turnoff.

Any time I tried to get a little more info out of her, what she likes, dislikes, etc. I never got more than an embarrased "I don't know..." like a little girl would say. Eventually I just stuck with the sex we did have and stopped trying to ask her what else she'd like. I have never asked her point blank if she has had an orgasm, I'm too nervous to ask at this point, especially due to the fact that the mood itself hasn't been there much. I would love to try stuff like anal, more intense oral, etc but never asked since she seemed so unwilling to discuss it. Keep in mind I won't force or even beg her for something she is unwilling to do, but I'd like to have a real, adult discussion about it. I even once remkared to her that as flirty as she was online (we met online), she was very held back in person sexually. All she said was "I know" and a short, awkward attempt at me trying to gently get more info out of her was fruitless.

So these days, when we do have sex, she doesn't touch me AT ALL, basically, she lies there, halfheartedly kissing when I kiss her lips, letting me kiss HER body, holding her legs together when I attempt oral or a finger, and eventually gives me a subtle "go ahead" to climb aboard and pump away for a minute or two. She also never touches me anywhere anymore, in a seductive way.

I give her massages and she moans and sighs all over during that, but for sex, nothing.

That CAN'T be all she wants or needs, but she doesn't seem willing to communicate.

Should I just live with this? I think in part, setting a better mood might get her closer to at least how she used to be, but she's always been a little shy/repressed.

Could she be one of those women that just doesn't enjoy sex much? Or, is she afraid to tell me I suck? If she cannot orgasm and/or its very hard for her no matter what I do, then I'd like to just know.

If I'm doing something wrong, again, I want to know. I want her to enjoy sex!! Saying "it's fine" doesn't give me images of a satisfied woman. IT was GOOD might tell me that. Fine, is more, "meh" to me.

I'm more passionate and enthusiastic overall than she is, she's very mild mannered. This might just be how she is. We never fight though.

All I'm doing now is not asking for sex for 30 days, and reading up on understanding the female mind. I do help with the kids, the dishes, chores, etc and give her plenty of backrubs, get her a glass of water at night, etc.

So two things:

1. Increase libido
2. Make sure she enjoys it as much as she can.

[ItsASecret]

For some women they are generally just not as enthusiastic as the next woman. Everything is subjective, what works for one woman may not work on the next. Your wife may like the backrubs and that sort of intimacy while another woman may think "meh" to the prospect. You know your wife best, her personality, what ticks her off, what makes her smile. But one thing to note is you cannot change a person's personality, if they are a naturally quiet person the chances of them turning into a screaming yelling confrontational person is highly unlikely-I am not saying this is what you are expecting I just saying it as an example.

Sex can fall into the category of not being very affected by variety. Some women can come up with 60 positions in one session while another is perfectly okay with sticking to a single one. What does she say if you ask if you can do something different during sex? Nothing over the top or anything but something like asking "want to try and do it on the side of the bed it would remain comfortable for you".

One thing that is highly recommended against is continually bringing up something. Take the common "she will not give oral sex"...if that man continuously hounds her for a reason, always asks why she cannot do it for him, why she is not ravaging him and so on she will eventually become resentful of the fact that he keeps bringing it up and does not want to accept her answers or reasons. Some women need to be left alone to say to themselves that they need to just do something and use their own choices and willpower to do something in the bedroom. Other women are simply okay with the way things are, nothing needs to be extreme for them to like sex, nothing needs to be overly different, are not excited at looking around for new ideas and so forth...for those women they like sex but simply do not need some long list of variety to be happy during it, it is simply their personality in the bedroom.

Does your wife like to read? If she does would she be opposed to reading romance novels? Not the overly risque ones but the more seductive types, for some women those novels help with sparking the imagination for things. And if she really likes those novels already she can read 50 Shades of Grey....more along the lines of BDSM and bondage and stuff but apparently it really gets women going in the sexual department.

[DreamP346]

Joe, you have given us a lot of info, so lets see if we can get some good advise for you.

1) Most imporant - communication. I know you said your wifes doesn't like to talk about it, but you have to. Set up a date. Send the kids off to your in-laws or playdates. Make a nice meal (not talking putting together a romantic evening, but just where you are feeling good) and tell her clearly that this is an issue that needs to be discussed. If its going to be a good relationship, you need to be able to talk about everything including sex. It needs to be a neutral conversation about what you would like and what you would like to do for her.

2) Ask for things. Next time tell her you want to do a special something for her and spend the whole evening just pleasuring her. Lot of oral, massage, etc. Tell her the night is about her pleasure and there will be no intercourse.

3) Ask stuff for yourself. Ask her to be on top. Ask if she would like to try anal. You never know unless you ask.

[Joe77]

Joe, you have given us a lot of info, so lets see if we can get some good advise for you.

1) Most imporant - communication. I know you said your wifes doesn't like to talk about it, but you have to. Set up a date. Send the kids off to your in-laws or playdates. Make a nice meal (not talking putting together a romantic evening, but just where you are feeling good) and tell her clearly that this is an issue that needs to be discussed. If its going to be a good relationship, you need to be able to talk about everything including sex. It needs to be a neutral conversation about what you would like and what you would like to do for her.

2) Ask for things. Next time tell her you want to do a special something for her and spend the whole evening just pleasuring her. Lot of oral, massage, etc. Tell her the night is about her pleasure and there will be no intercourse.

3) Ask stuff for yourself. Ask her to be on top. Ask if she would like to try anal. You never know unless you ask.

For #1, a starting point would be some way to gently ask her point blank "have you ever had an orgasm with me, or at all". If the answer is yes, then I want to know what happened to make it happen, and would she like me to try? If it's no, then to ask has she tried a lot of ways and go from there. I do realize some women just cannot, either for physcial or deep-seated psychological reasons and in that case, many do still enjoy sex anyway.

2. The massage part she'd be all for but Oral? I actually think she finds her own vaginal area repulsive. If I were a betting man I'd say she has never masturbated, but I don't know for sure. Do you think that would be too much to ask her? What about asking "do you not like oral sex?" I get the impression she doesn't and since she is overweight it might be a body image issue. Or she may just think it's gross or feels weird. She has said that "it tickles" when I try, but for most women a change of angle or indirect stimulation solves that problem. She never LETS me try.

3. I wonder if due to her weight and the exhaustion of daily life if her on top is just more work than she feels like doing at the moment. Anal? I might go there if she opens up a lot.

Thanks for the reply!

[Joe77]

For some women they are generally just not as enthusiastic as the next woman. Everything is subjective, what works for one woman may not work on the next. Your wife may like the backrubs and that sort of intimacy while another woman may think "meh" to the prospect. You know your wife best, her personality, what ticks her off, what makes her smile. But one thing to note is you cannot change a person's personality, if they are a naturally quiet person the chances of them turning into a screaming yelling confrontational person is highly unlikely-I am not saying this is what you are expecting I just saying it as an example.

Sex can fall into the category of not being very affected by variety. Some women can come up with 60 positions in one session while another is perfectly okay with sticking to a single one. What does she say if you ask if you can do something different during sex? Nothing over the top or anything but something like asking "want to try and do it on the side of the bed it would remain comfortable for you".

One thing that is highly recommended against is continually bringing up something. Take the common "she will not give oral sex"...if that man continuously hounds her for a reason, always asks why she cannot do it for him, why she is not ravaging him and so on she will eventually become resentful of the fact that he keeps bringing it up and does not want to accept her answers or reasons. Some women need to be left alone to say to themselves that they need to just do something and use their own choices and willpower to do something in the bedroom. Other women are simply okay with the way things are, nothing needs to be extreme for them to like sex, nothing needs to be overly different, are not excited at looking around for new ideas and so forth...for those women they like sex but simply do not need some long list of variety to be happy during it, it is simply their personality in the bedroom.

Does your wife like to read? If she does would she be opposed to reading romance novels? Not the overly risque ones but the more seductive types, for some women those novels help with sparking the imagination for things. And if she really likes those novels already she can read 50 Shades of Grey....more along the lines of BDSM and bondage and stuff but apparently it really gets women going in the sexual department.

Well, I get that some people are more enthusiastic than others. However, if I massage her, she makes enough mild moans and such that i know she likes it, but for sex, nada. Which makes me think either A - she doesn't like sex much or B - I'm doing it wrong or C - she's embarrassed to make any sounds at that time.

Oh, and while I am attempting forepay or even penetration, she will sit there and talk about the **** cat, or something that happened that day, or whatever is on the TV. That actually kinda ****es me off but I've never told her that. Obvious indicator that she's not into it.

I get off just fine in missionary, but our mutually large bellies make it a hard position for ME to be comfortable in. I'd like some variety myself.

I haven't asked her in a long time why she won't give ME oral, but if I ask why she won't let me give it to her, there is usually no response at all, she is just silent or she just talks about something else. I get that you can't keep asking something, but I haven't ever really gotten an answer that makes sense if at all.

She DOES read romance novels! However, one of her personal friends is a romance novelist, and she generally only reads her books.

So to combine your advise with sp346:

What if when we sit down, I acknowledge that I realize she gets put off that I sometimes keep asking her things, so that tonight, I want to ask some very specific questions and hope to get some specific answers, so I can know exactly what we need to do...is that an OK approach?

[Joe77]

A follow up question: Is there anything to my concern about her saying "fine" as opposed to "good" as her answer for how good the sex is? To me, "fine" just means "acceptable" but not as good as it could be. If you go out to a restaurant, and I ask "how was it" and you say "good" or "great" I'm far more likely to go there than if you say "it was fine". Is that just me?

One more follow up: Is it possible that she just doesn't like sex, never will and is only trying to do me a favor?

[Joe77]

2. The massage part she'd be all for but Oral? I actually think she finds her own vaginal area repulsive. If I were a betting man I'd say she has never masturbated, but I don't know for sure. Do you think that would be too much to ask her? What about asking "do you not like oral sex?" I get the impression she doesn't and since she is overweight it might be a body image issue. Or she may just think it's gross or feels weird. She has said that "it tickles" when I try, but for most women a change of angle or indirect stimulation solves that problem. She never LETS me try any further once she reaches the "tickle" point and often won't even open her legs up to let me even really start.

I wanted to clarify what I meant there.

[ItsASecret]

Did she grow up in a religious household? If so maybe she has been so ingrained that sex is not something a couple should really do unless they "need" to. It is certainly possible though that she is simply embarrassed or reserved in expressing herself during sex. I know I am quite reserved in the expression department, my bf could not pay me to go all out wild because that is just not who I am but I will give the odd moan here and there out of feeling good. He used to think I was really not enjoying myself because I am not some crazed screaming bouncing thrashing about girl (pretty sure he used to focus on porn as the ideal reaction lol) but I had to explain to him that I am a quiet girl that I am not outgoing in expressing myself and so forth and eventually he came to see that even though I do not make a lot of noise that when I do make my moans or heavy breathing that it is his indicator that I am enjoying it.

Off talking about something else during foreplay I can understand would make you upset, quite understandable. Have you been able to ever been able to get her to say yes if you have done something and asked if she liked it? Say you kissed the inside of her thigh or stomach and asked does that feel good? Has she ever said yes to something like that? If so you could mention one day that you remember her saying she liked when you kissed her stomach (or wherever) that one time and wondered if you could do that again for her because you know she likes it.

How would she react if you said you wanted some variety? Remind her that nothing extreme comes to mind but just a different position just for that night, this way you establish you want something new out of curiosity but not be confrontational or anything.

About the novels, ask her if she would like a book as a gift one day. Or if you already do buy her books say you know she likes her friend's novels but if she is not currently writing one you could get her one in the meantime. And from there you could search out one that is romance but maybe up the material up a bit to something a bit more risque without getting too far into it...or if she likes to read the bestsellers you could mention that 50 Shades of Grey novel since you know she likes romance books.

Asking for very specific answers may be too much. If she is already hesitant about sex and you approach with "I want the exact details now" she could clam up. You need to approach it with a neutral tone, no frustration, but at the same time without expecting it to be long and drawn out-if she does open up then great work with that. If you can get her to talk about one thing just one simple thing like you would like if she would massage your shoulders then say thank you and you appreciate the conversation...just one thing would be a step forward.

[jns]

One thing that you did not hit on was how many times a week you were ready for sex during the beginning of your marriage (when you were around each other every day without major distractions). Also, how often was she the one who really wanted sex at that time? How about now for both of you?

It sounds like you two weren't really sexually compatible, but were compatible in many other ways. She is probably being who she really is and I don't mean that in a bad way. Doing some things was exciting during the courtship and at the beginning of married life. Sex is no longer a biggie in her life now. If that is the case, I'm not sure you can fix it.

[Stillness]

Hey Joe77,

Have you ever heard of something called Kegel exercises? They work the "PC" muscles on the pelvic floor and allow men to delay orgasm. It doesn't sound like it will fix all your issues, but it will most likely improve your pleasure and may help with hers as well. It may also decrease the refractory period so that you might be able to have sex again and more quickly, in which case you could be able to substantially delay orgasm. Many times women take longer than us. The down side is that it may increase your libido, and if you're already not getting it enough it could cause frustration.

Also, it sounds like you need to communicate to her that you're unsatisfied by her lack of affection. It may hurt at first, but she deserves to know how you feel. She may be shocked to learn you aren't satisfied. Have you told her you are? I don't know exactly how you should talk to your wife - but a quiet time you two have alone when neither is extremely tired or stressed would probably be ideal. The is your partner of 5 years. You made babies and see each others dirty drawers. You can't be afraid to communicate intimate feelings. Give her honest, specific commendation first. "I love the way you take care of me and our babies. You're the perfect woman for me. I want to talk to you about something. I've been holding it in because I don't want to hurt you, but I do want us to be closer..." Something like that.

Years ago I was extremely frustrated. I told my wife and she said, "I thought everything was fine." She really didn't have a clue. People are not mind readers (well, some of them are, but not our wives). The communication helped a lot. I've never withheld my feelings again.