[lordgarion]

To all your question, the answer is yes. Its just a very complicated scenario. Just like two 13 year olds having sex is illegal (they are statutory raping each other), it will never be persecuted. Having sex with an intoxicated person is illegal (theoretically). Can that person sign a legal agreement selling something or giving something up during that state? If no, then how can they legally give consent to have sex. I'm not saying that all drunken sex should be prosecuted, but from a legal standpoint, it can be rape.

Found this thread while researching on how a lot of women change their minds the next day and then decide they were raped when they met at a bar/party and both were totally wasted, and the fact that many people know a man this has happened to(whether charged or not) and how allowing it to be called rape just because the woman can't consent, but the man somehow can?, belittles real rape that many women endure. If two drunk people go into a store and one robs it and the other just stands there looking surprised and stupid and leaves with the one that did the robbing they are both charged, the one that did nothing is just as guilty, being drunk is no defense.Shouldn't the same apply to sex. Why does the drunk woman get a pass for intentionally making herself drunk when it comes to consenting to sex but not to committing a crime? By the drunk sex standard, women should not be guilty of drunk driving, since she is incapable of understanding what she is doing.

But I have seen a few cases over the years where a drunk man was charged and convicted of raping a drunk woman who on the stand admitted they were both drunk and she was a willful participant but the next day realized it was a mistake and that it was because she was drunk that she was taken "advantage of". Fortunately it has been many years since I have heard of a court case like that, but women still say it from time to time and even just mentioning it can have horrible consequences to the man, such as losing his job. Not to mention all the women who admit they lied about rape in general. these things cause society in general to care less when a woman is truly raped, makes it seem like they could be lying(except for the obvious physically brutal attacks that some commit in addition to the rape). But for women that are just restrained by the stronger man these women who change their minds and the ones who outright lie cause many people to always wonder and make it easier for true rapists to get a reduced sentence(who wants to send a man who might be a victim of a lie to prison for 30 years) or even set free, just in case she is lying. There should be punishments for false accusations at least as severe(if not worse since the liars and mind changers can cause many other women to be raped) as what the man would get if found guilty.

But anyway, the reason I joined was to provide a bit of info about the 13YO scenario you mentioned. Many states(my home of N.C. being one of them) don't actually have an age of consent per se. They have an age of consent to have sex with a legal adult(18), otherwise the law specifies an age range. Like here in N.C. there is no crime if the age of the oldest is less than exactly 3 years of the youngest(regardless of the sex of either) So if say a girl/boy turned 10YO today and the oldest turns 13 tomorrow then no crime has been committed. But if the oldest turned 13 today as well,(or sooner) then they are guilty of "indecent liberties with children".
Which is why many states have the age of consent to have sex with an adult to be 16, as legally speaking there is no difference between a 16YO having sex with an 18YO and a 40YO. At 18 your an adult.

[Hugo-B]

^^^I agree. I don't think consent can be, or should be able to be, retrospectively withdrawn. Despite the legal implications I think there is a moral obligation on people to take a certain amount of responsibility for their own behavior - and that goes for men and women. A poster here called Magnetism pointed out something that I wasn't aware of (in a thread she started, I cannot remember the name of it though) and that was that a lot of schools and colleges in the USA still promote the Catholic 'guilt' attitude towards sex (I think that was it, apologies to Magnetism if I'm wrong, but I think that was the theme).

I think this could have a lot to with these retrospective withdrawal of consent rape accusations: Young boys and girls are horny, regardless of upbringing and instilled values. They are raised by values which teach them to repress their sexual urges and feel guilty for them. They get drunk, inhibitions go out of the window, and sex takes place. Morning after young men are likely feeling a little guilty but more relieved than anything, whilst the girl is more likely panicking and feeling like the entire world knows she a's disease ridden, pregnant prostitute who's about to fly to Hades on a heat seeking missile. Women still even get a bad reputation in western society for being seen to 'sleep around', so I can't imagine how a young, wet behind the ears, catholic girl (or girl who's religious value are similar) who's just had sex for the first time must feel once she's sobered up? I'll bet a lot of these girls report these as rapes out of fear and guilt, as opposed to malice. I'm proffering this as an explanation not as an excuse or justification, and this as one possible scenario makes sense to me.

I'm not saying that all accusations are false, or that no girls really are raped on campus, I'm just trying to explore the different possibilities and see things from the woman's perspective.

One thing men do need to recognize is that women generally do have a much lower tolerance for alcohol than men. Although this may actually be a point of contention nowadays, especially the way many women drink now.

What women who do make spurious claims and then retract them (enabling themselves to retain anonymity if they choose to not press charges whilst the man is publicly names as being accused of rape) is make it more difficult for genuine victims to secure convictions, which is unfortunate. The current conviction rate illustrates this.

Just look at that Julian Assange case, it's obvious that he's done something else to scorn that woman and she's doing her best to destroy him on a technicality. she's essentially saying he raped her because he breached the T&C's upon which she agreed to have sex with him on.

[DreamP346]

lordgarion and buddhaboy. Based on reading your posts, you guys seem to think that false reporting of rape is fairly common. It is not. In a large study, they found only 3% of rapes to be false accusations. This is less than false reporting of other crimes. But I don't see huge debates about how so many people falsely accuse somebody of breaking into their homes, or steading their money or trying to kill them just to get back at somebody. Even though the statistics show that it is more likely to happen than a woman making fasse claims to rape.

And the idea that somebody would put themselves through the humiliation of being labeled a victim, having a rape kit done on them, being questioned, having their entire sexual history brought up and knowing that they will most likely have to stand in court in front of the person they are accussing, as well as their own family and friends, just because they changed their minds is belittling the experience rape victims go through after the rape just to press charges. How many women do you think will really do that to themselves just because they feel guilty the next day.

Do false rape charges happen? Yes, just like everything else in life, there are always people looking for attention or trying to con somebody. But with rape, it is a very small statistic, smaller than any other crimes. Considering what a small percent of actual rapes even get reported, when you think about it, false rape accusations among all the accual rapes that are happening is very very very small.

[DreamP346]

Found this thread while researching on how a lot of women change their minds the next day and then decide they were raped when they met at a bar/party and both were totally wasted, and the fact that many people know a man this has happened to(whether charged or not) and how allowing it to be called rape just because the woman can't consent, but the man somehow can?, belittles real rape that many women endure. If two drunk people go into a store and one robs it and the other just stands there looking surprised and stupid and leaves with the one that did the robbing they are both charged, the one that did nothing is just as guilty, being drunk is no defense.Shouldn't the same apply to sex. Why does the drunk woman get a pass for intentionally making herself drunk when it comes to consenting to sex but not to committing a crime? By the drunk sex standard, women should not be guilty of drunk driving, since she is incapable of understanding what she is doing.

Yes, alcohol is treated similarly in drunk driving and with rape. Being drunk is not an excuse for committing a crime, regardless of the victim's state of mind. If you drunk drive, get into an accident and kill your passenger, just because the passenger was drunk and should have known better than to get in a car with a drunk person doesn't give the driver a pass.

[Hugo-B]

lordgarion and buddhaboy. Based on reading your posts, you guys seem to think that false reporting of rape is fairly common. It is not. In a large study, they found only 3% of rapes to be false accusations. This is less than false reporting of other crimes. But I don't see huge debates about how so many people falsely accuse somebody of breaking into their homes, or steading their money or trying to kill them just to get back at somebody. Even though the statistics show that it is more likely to happen than a woman making fasse claims to rape.

And the idea that somebody would put themselves through the humiliation of being labeled a victim, having a rape kit done on them, being questioned, having their entire sexual history brought up and knowing that they will most likely have to stand in court in front of the person they are accussing, as well as their own family and friends, just because they changed their minds is belittling the experience rape victims go through after the rape just to press charges. How many women do you think will really do that to themselves just because they feel guilty the next day.

Do false rape charges happen? Yes, just like everything else in life, there are always people looking for attention or trying to con somebody. But with rape, it is a very small statistic, smaller than any other crimes. Considering what a small percent of actual rapes even get reported, when you think about it, false rape accusations among all the accual rapes that are happening is very very very small.

There is a big difference between a false rape accusation and a false rape charge.

Most false rape accusations are just that, accusations and do not reach the stage of going to court or even pressing charges. This way the humiliation of being labelled a victim is circumvented because the complainant is able to retain anonymity, because charges aren't pressed in these incidents, they do not contribute towards the statistics, because they do not turn into cases, and remain accusations.

The difference between accusing someone of a sexual crime as opposed to a non sexual crime is the damage to reputation, as we have previously discussed, which is why I personally am not particularly interested in starting a discussion about false accusation of non-sexual crimes, because the implications of a mere accusation are very, very, different. I don't think false accusations/charges are common, but in my opinion they are frequent enough to warrant concern and further discussion, hence this thread.

It was actually a US attorney who told me, and I quote him verbatim, "Retrospective withdrawal of consent following sex whilst intoxicated is a massive problem on college campuses." I suppose his job would expose him to more of this making him jaded and probably cynical too, so whilst he may be frequently exposed to these incidents in the grand scheme of things they aren't happening on a day to day basis.

We've thrashed this topic to death, and are only going over old ground now anyway so lets leave this thread to gather dust...

[jns]

It was actually a US attorney who told me, and I quote him verbatim, "Retrospective withdrawal of consent following sex whilst intoxicated is a massive problem on college campuses." I suppose his job would expose him to more of this making him jaded and probably cynical too, so whilst he may be frequently exposed to these incidents in the grand scheme of things they aren't happening on a day to day basis.

A US attorney using "whilst" instead of "while"? Tell me more about him. I am curious to know why he would not phrase things as an USA American normally would.

[Hugo-B]

A US attorney using "whilst" instead of "while"? Tell me more about him. I am curious to know why he would not phrase things as an USA American normally would.

That was me JNS, so no it wasn't verbatim, that actually makes it paraphrasing, my bad. This is the same guy I asked for advice on behalf of the OP in the 'someone's lying' thread.

[Hugo-B]

A US attorney using "whilst" instead of "while"? Tell me more about him. I am curious to know why he would not phrase things as an USA American normally would.

OK, 'verbatim' was a big deviation from the truth, although - scouts honor - I was positive that was how he had said it and that I wasn't paraphrasing. I gave you good reason to call me out and you did. I asked this same question in my google+ group since there are two attorneys there, one male and one female. Things did deteriorate into joking quite quickly but this is a copy and paste of his response to my question:

"All joking aside, this is a real problem on college campuses. Kids get drunk, have sex, one party (99/100 the female) regrets it and claims rape, "we were both drunk" is not a defense. It happens a lot more than people realize. "

[jns]

An attorney from the USA who lived in the UK for a while would pick up the local phrasing, I suppose, so I wasn't necessarily calling you out. I did think it was a strange way to put things for most people from the USA. Since learning Thai as an adult, and also from growing up near the border with Canada, I am aware of variations in our common language.

As for having sex, it is always best if you are in control of yourself and are with someone who is in control of them self. In situations where rape is claimed I would think that the man is more aggressive most of the time. Some guys wish to get the girl drunk and then take advantage as a normal (for them) strategy.

[Stillness]

Kids get drunk, have sex, one party (99/100 the female) regrets it and claims rape

I have a relative that was raped. She was in college at the time hanging out with her boyfriend and some friends at one of the friend's home. Everybody was drinking. She felt comfortable as she was with her boyfriend and his friends. She got drunk. She went to the bathroom and one of her boyfriend's friends came in behind her after she had pulled her pants off and sat on the toilet and forced oral sex on her (him performing).

When she me told I said, "Why not scream out?!" She could barely remember all the details. She was thinking that someone was going to get killed if she called out. She never reported it or even told her boyfriend. She got counseling, but is still scarred, I suspect. (Although I haven't asked her about it in about 5 years, the last time I did she said it still affects her). She admitted to me that it felt good and that contributes to the shame and guilt.

If she had reported it I imagine that he would have been claiming that it was consensual and that she regretted it later. He might have argued that they were both drunk. Ironically, there may be some truth to that. She didn't initiate it or want to do it, but at some point probably let it happened and didn't call for help which was right in the next room. The problem was that she was put in a position where she needed to call for help. If she hadn't been drunk, she would have. And most importantly, he was the aggressor and she was not lucid enough to consent.

Here is my point. I think that a lot of people imagine two kids being drunk and "one thing leading to another" and the young lady regretting it in the morning. They think that everybody does regrettable stuff when they're drunk. And I agree that sex while drinking does not equal victimization. I've had my fair share of fun under the influence. But if someone claims that they were raped and goes so far as to subject themselves to the legal system to get justice, it's very likely that the "one thing leading to another" involves someone violating them while they were in a vulnerable state in which they were not properly equipped to give consent. That is rape. So, to me, the "Kids get drunk, have sex, one party (99/100 the female) regrets it and claims rape" explanation, while true, glosses over the reality. If a drunk woman is walking home in the dark and a drunk stranger jumps out of the bushes and brutally beats her into submission and penetrates her you could say, "They got drunk, had sex, and she regretted it."

I know that message wasn't official and didn't come from you, buddhaboy. But I do feel that it reflects a popular mischaracterization of rape - one that I've probably been guilty of myself. It's such a terrible thing that the mind can tend to search for a way to excuse it or explain it away. So we say things like, "Some women lie" or "She regretted it afterwards" or "They were both drunk." I think we really need to be careful that we don't further victimize someone who's already been violated by minimizing their pain. The reason why "we were both drunk" is not a defense is because it's not valid.