[CHANDLERS WISH]

Its not that women don't know that this might happen. Women who live under rocks know that men pray on drunk women. And they still let themselves do it...why, because "its fun", and its only a "night out with my friends".

And tell me, why we as women are not allowed to go out and have a night out with friends and not be safe? They may pray, but it is still our priogrative to say, "go away, or no" yet often it is not heard.

Then there is Jill who lived in Melbourne, worked for BBC radio, married, 29, went out for a night out with her colleagues, lived 5 minutes away, walked in a clear lit main street with other people walking it, & yet, some guy waited in the wings near an alley, grabbed her, raped her and killed her... She also new martial arts but a guy over 6ft with muscles can always beat a woman.. She was responsible, she walked a busy street amongst lighting...

I do not think that your theory sticks at all.

You seem to be angry in my opinion at women who dare to have a drink, when there are males around. Yet males can drink as much as they want.

Also Law and Order if non-fiction.

And, we are meant to be discussing "Can a woman rape a man" not the other way around.

Bottom line is, yes there are creeps who take advantage of drunk college girls...my buddies have done it...my cousin does it...I would be extremely surprised if any man had never done something like that. Almost everyone has woken up next to someone they would never have slept with were they sober. 99% of people don't consider that rape, they consider it a mistake and the price of "having fun" akin to the pain of falling off your bike when you were a child.

You didn't say whether "you" have done it But that is a mistake, that is consentual, or the word no was never used, so off course that is not rape?

[a_dub]

And tell me, why we as women are not allowed to go out and have a night out with friends and not be safe? They may pray, but it is still our priogrative to say, "go away, or no" yet often it is not heard.

I'm talking about the situation where a woman is too drunk to say no...or she's got her inhibitions lowered enough to say yes to pretty much anyone. Its not about women being lesser and not being allowed...its about common sense. Having it is not enough, those who use common sense are usually better off for it. We would all like to do certain things but sometimes don't in order to be safer rather than sorry.

Then there is Jill who lived in Melbourne, worked for BBC radio, married, 29, went out for a night out with her colleagues, lived 5 minutes away, walked in a clear lit main street with other people walking it, & yet, some guy waited in the wings near an alley, grabbed her, raped her and killed her... She also new martial arts but a guy over 6ft with muscles can always beat a woman.. She was responsible, she walked a busy street amongst lighting...

This story doesn't mention whether she was drunk or not and either way, this could have happened to anyone regardless of alcohol usage. I'm talking about specifically women who drink and are taken advantage of.

You seem to be angry in my opinion at women who dare to have a drink, when there are males around. Yet males can drink as much as they want.

I have equal disgust for men who drink. Men who drink have killed many people in car accidents, drunken rages, etc. Alcohol is a cancer for society, IMO, and it should be treated as such. Just as a tumor might be benign but creates fear and is only just a mutation away from malignancy, so too is the distinction almost non-existant between alcohol use and abuse.

You didn't say whether "you" have done it But that is a mistake, that is consentual, or the word no was never used, so off course that is not rape?

I don't drink, so I'm usually not in places where that occurs or where people are doing it irresponsibly, if at all. I am also disgusted by the smell of alcohol and since that would be on the breath of the girl, thats a major turn off. I'd have probably been laid a hell of a lot more if I did engage in that activity, but I just don't think its worth it. I'm sorry, but thats just not my cup of tea.

[Little]

Oh, I see, you're angry at everybody who drinks in general, on top of thinking poorly of women specifically. You think that anybody who drinks (or uses ANY mind-altering substance, I assume) needs to be punished, and if there isn't a law out there to stop somebody from using that substance, better that somebody perpetrate a crime against them. A crime that will traumatize the survivor and mess him/her up for the remainder of his/her life. That's not a mature viewpoint. That's why you need to get off my lawn. Take your bikes and your nerf guns and your reasoning skills and punitive theory belonging to an adolescent and get off this old person who's seen too much of the world's lawn with it all. Take your cousin with you.

I know poor decisions after drink. Been there. Done that. It's awkward and weird and makes you feel poorly about yourself for doing stupid stuff. If there are women out there who think that "awkward and weird and self-loathing" is what rape feels like, good for them. If they've decided those feelings equate rape and persecute based on it, send 'em over here so I can beat 'em with my very sturdy fiberglass beating implement. Because I'm angry that people talk sooo much about them when there is so much legitimate rape (oh no buzz words!) going on that NEVER reaches an ear, not a police ear, not even a best friend's ear. And this thread was done talking about that subject before a_dub came in with his propeller hat on, lollipop in hand, with his musings.

I'm angry because I know rape. Rape is a violation. Rape is traumatizing. Rape will **** you up for the rest of your life. You can get over rape, kinda sorta, but it never really leaves you. Rape is not about prosecution and who won in a trial. It's not about ruining some poor innocent man's life. Sorry, can't sympathize over here! Rape is torture. Better go tell a POW that he's at fault for getting tortured because he joined the military during or right before a time of war.

People have this stupid idea that rapists are all slobbering beasts hiding in corners. Or that they're meticulously coiffed sociopathic frat boys. A_dub does bring up one decent point in the wading mire of his bull hockey. We all probably have a cousin who has raped. One or more of your buddies has probably raped. When the statistics for college women having been sexually abused is ONE IN FOUR (in the UK, recent study,) what are the odds that the same >1% of the male population that we're comfortable thinking of as rapists have victimized a fat 25% of the female population? The man who raped me was my fiancé, someone with whom I shared romance, lost my virginity to the same weekend, someone I knew for years, who had many friends, held the esteem of people in his community, had no problem getting promotions in the military. He's not even a bad person, supposing he never did it again. He just didn't listen to any of my (many, many) requests to stop.

But hey, I didn't have a hymen anymore by the end of it, so I guess I should thank him, amirite?

[Stillness]

a_dub,

I, for one, am happy to have you join the conversation. I think this it's one we need to have. A lot of people feel the way you do, at least to some extent. Some of them just won't admit to it. Even I will say that getting drunk is like playing with fire. Getting "burned" is not unexpected in one way or another.

I want to throw a couple of scenarios at you. You say:

but she is equally to blame because she acted foolishly and irresponsibly. She got in the pursuit of having fun just like the girl who got roofied up. Whats the difference?

1. A man gets drunk. He catches a cab home. He doesn't realize the cab driver has been drinking too. The cab driver wraps the cab around a pole. Is the drunk man to blame?

2. A man goes out and has a drink with his buddies. He enjoys drinking once in a while and knows he can maintain control. But one of those "buddies" slips a roofie in his drink. He takes him to an abandoned building, rapes him, and leaves there him naked. Is the victim to blame? What if he was drinking Pepsi and got a roofie slipped in?

3. Your mother and your father take a trip with two other couples they trust. They all have a bit to drink. Your mother, feeling safe among friends and with your father there, has a bit more than she should and gets quite tipsy. One of her "friends" sees this as an opportunity to do things to your mother the second that she's alone. Is it your mother's fault? Instead of drinking, your mother hurt herself and took some strong medication to make her rest. Is it her fault if someone she trusts takes advantage of her then?

[ItsASecret]

She got in the pursuit of having fun just like the girl who got roofied up. Whats the difference?

Roofies now? I hope you know that a roofie is a drug added to a drink, in secret so the woman does not know, so that she becomes entirely incapacitated and fully taken advantage of for the purpose of rape. A girl drinking is not "roofied up" unless she physically is drugged.

Look, just because its taboo or socially unacceptable to say it doesn't mean its incorrect.

What you are saying is a drunk woman who puts herself into a risky situation and gets victimized cannot be blamed because she has a right to pursue a good time. Fine, I disagree, but not on logical grounds.

How is this any different from a woman who works as an escort, knows her job is risky, still refuses to use condoms, and then sobs about catching HIV?

And you honestly wonder why you have not found the right girl yet or cannot find a way to find the hottest girl in the world to like you? Go up to one of those girls next time who you see with a drink in her hand as you walk by the bar and tell her you see her as a prostitute, deserving of getting raped for drinking, and overall disgusting to you for drinking. See how that one goes.

[rcoreyus]

Its strange, but for me drunken women are not at all attractive. I've spent time with women in various social situations, and have the sort of personality that is attracted to a many different women. I haven't acted on that attraction - I am married, but I do flirt and enjoy the attention if women flirt back. When someone is drunk though, things change for me: it feels as if they are only attracted to me because their judgement is impaired, which is not nearly as flattering.

[Stillness]

Maybe society should refuse to prosecute a woman who offs a predatory male (withdraws societal protection).

I'm assuming you mean after the fact? That so old school! I'd be for that society.

The boyfriend that raped my friend died in a house fire a few years ago. I find myself conflicted with sadness at the loss of life and satisfaction that he was killed. More the satisfaction. I had fantasized so many times about hurting him. I've been trying to figure out if that makes me evil. I don't think that justice requires death for what he did, but I'm happy he died. I've tried to wish that didn't happen to him, but I can't. I can't help but to think, "One down. One to go."

[Little]

Can't say I haven't been smug about every bad thing that ever happened to my ex, up to and including his brain damage sustained in Iraq.

The problem with not prosecuting women who kill men who raped them is, over and over, not being able to prove she was raped. You assume nobody could care about the rapist, but returning to the idea that raping men aren't all slobbering monsters, rapists too have people who love them, respect them, will never believe they raped anybody, and will want their murderers served justice.

That said, there is no question in my mind that if I were ever raped again, there would be a murder-suicide in my immediate future. It's not something I could get over and live through a second time, and it's definitely not something I could allow to go without vengeance a second time. Understanding that I have a husband who loves me and a son who needs me, I haven't changed my mind - that's the kind of damage rape does.

[Stillness]

I wasn't talking about foregoing a trial.

Also, some murder is so close to justifiable that it's almost allowed - even legally. My wife and I were looking at a case where a trusted coach kidnapped a boy and raped him repeatedly. As he was doing the walk of shame with deputies on either side of him and his hands cuffed behind his back, the father jumped out from a phone booth and shot him in the head. We saw the actual video. I'm a little cloudy on all the details (I wish I could find it), but I think he got 5 months probation for premeditated murder.

So don't be so quick on the suicide. There's a good chance people would understand. Get me on the jury and you'd be going home to your family scot-free.

Edit: It's five years probation. Video a bit graphic.

[Little]

People are quick to believe child rape. There are often more physical signs, less knowledge of sex to make up charges, no previous sexual activity to "justify" the abuser. Not so much adult rape.

My experiences and my geography (unless one or both of those changes dramatically) convince me that I would never win a rape trial, no matter the circumstances. After all, I run this website and talk big about how women should have as much consensual sex as they want, right? And I was raped before and never prosecuted, right? I would never win in a million years, and that's the reality for many sexual abuse survivors. Sounds dark, maybe a little dramatic, but you know me to be a reasonable and evidence-considering kinda gal in other situations, so be assured that I have reasoned and considered this at length.

No URLs, plz sir.