[JonDoe]

The following post from another thread got me wondering if some women do not even desire affection and (non-sexual) intimacy. Is that even possible? Is there hope that with counseling someone can desire and learn to be different in this regard? Should we seek counseling from a sex therapist, marriage counselor or both?

There is a theory about the female sexual reponse cycle that claims women do not feel desire like men. They desire intimacy and therefore are open to sexual interactions. The foreplay gets them aroused and creates desire. This is not true for every woman....

My wife doesn't show any signs of having desire for sexual or non-sexual intimacy. The most she does is to give me a kiss before bed each night, but it is the kind of kiss that she would give any friend or family member, including her brother. If I don't initiate intimacy, she will happily go many months without anything more then this daily ritual and won't try to initiate, tell me that she misses intimacy or even ask me if anything is wrong. When I initiate, she is quick to turn me away the vast majority of the time. She considers it groping if I put my arms around her and gently kiss the back of her neck. I can't even recall the last time we shared a truly passionate kiss. When I try to kiss her passionately she will pull away and say "What is this, a high school make out session?"

A few nights ago my wife went to bed before me as usual. Same nightly routine with the brotherly kiss before she headed upstairs to read. I went up to bed about twenty minutes later and found her masturbating. When I asked why she didn't invite me to join her, she said "I wasn't in the mood until I scratched myself and thought 'Hmm. That feels good.' so I did." Then when I asked to join she said "I'm good." and got dressed. Now, I'm all for her having alone time, but not at the exclusion of having any time together. We haven't been together sexually in over two months in part because I have only initiated a few times, which was met with an excuse or rejection, yet she expects me to believe that a simple scratch put her over the top and she had to take care of this insatiable urge when I was within ear shot of her.

I think a major part of the problem is that she is satisfied by romantic novels, fantasies and self pleasuring, and doesn't care if or how my needs are met as long I provide everything else she needs from a husband and I don't cheat on her, which she knows that I would never do. She claims she only masturbates about once every six months or longer, but I know **************** well this is so far from the truth.

While talking last weekend, I told her that I am seriously contemplating divorce. She showed no emotion until she brought up the impact on the kids. Later that night, she climbed in my lap, put her arms around me, and held on to me tight for at least 15 minutes before standing up, grabbing my hand and asking me to come to bed, which she has never done. When we settled in bed, she put her arm and leg over me and held me until she fell asleep, which she has also never done in nearly 25 years despite me asking more times than I can count. So now I'm asking myself "Is this a temporary change in behavior to protect the financial stability for her and the kids or does she finally get it after all these years?" Sadly, I believe I know the answer to this rhetorical question. All things eventually come to an end, but this isn't how I would have planned my life.

I find the hardest part of making this decision to be the potential impact on the kids and the feeling that I may have a very difficult time letting another woman into my heart, both of which bring me fear and trepidation.

[rcoreyus]

Without intimacy all you have is (at best) friendship, not love. If you have done everything you can, then I believe that you are not under any moral obligation to stay. A marriage vow should not be a vow of celibacy.

It is clear that your wife has some interest in sex, but not with you. This is probably not in any way your fault, but whatever it is she desires, is isn't you. She might be happier as well if you left.

If you haven't tried counseling, then you should, but if it doesn't fix things, then I think you should leave.

[JonDoe]

It is clear that your wife has some interest in sex, but not with you. This is probably not in any way your fault, but whatever it is she desires, is isn't you. She might be happier as well if you left.

If I read my posts objectively, I come to similar conclusions. However, she has been like this regarding intimacy and sex literally ever since eating the wedding cake, despite being very promiscuous before marriage. Even the first week of marriage was like this. We had sex the night of the wedding reception and once during our week long tropical honeymoon. I have introduced her to so many new pleasures, which she loves yet she remains utterly selfish in the bedroom.

However before we lived together, we had sex every time we were together, even on our first date, which she initiated. I could show up at her place any time of the day or night and she would want to have sex. She would even wake me up in the middle of the night to have sex.

Now she seems like a female version of the stereotypical male that we read about in so many posts on this site, in that once she has an orgasm she's done and therefore we are done. Her porn is romantic novels, and she masturbates every chance she gets.

The irony is that we have a close set of friends that I very recently learned are the exact opposite of us in this regard. The wife is begging for affection and intimacy, and the husband loves her, but doesn't want to be bothered. On the surface, the easy solution is for us to help each other, which of course is never that easy.

[Stillness]

I think that for some women, erotic literature does for them what visual pornography does for some men. Most people will take a horny mate over fantasy, but for some the fantasy and masturbation is preferred. It's selfish. Maybe they have a stronger imaginations or more addictive personalities, I don't know. This kind of stuff contributed to killing my cousin's marriage. His wife was into the romance novels.

I think she needs to do the same thing they tell men to do when they're choosing their hands and porn. Get rid of the books and stop masturbating. I know that may seem drastic to her and I know you don't care about that (and may even be turned on by it), but it seems to be substituting you.

My wife and I have been trying some more extreme (to me, at least) stuff I said I'd never do and it's drastically improved our intimacy.

[EricNYU]

How have you lived like this for 25 years? The last year of my marriage was sexless but I was only married 6 years. I couldn't a done longer than that. Looking at it from an outsiders perspective, looks like she has the desire but not for you. That's a hard pill to take. So the minute you mentioned divorce she came back around, not for you but for the situation, whatever she's getting out of it. Think hard about the possibility she was using sex to get into the financial safety of a marriage. If you haven't tried the counseling thing then try it first and see what comes of it. If it doesn't work, I'd be done.

[jns]

JD, it sounds like she is doing just enough to keep you from quitting. She has years at playing this game. So do you. Threatening divorce as an aphrodisiac, what a concept.

rc, I believe it is possible to have romantic love without intimacy, even for the long term. Having intimacy with romantic love lets the genie out of the bottle and it is hard to go back to romantic love without intimacy especially if one or both have a strong sexual side that is tied to that intimacy.

[JonDoe]

How have you lived like this for 25 years?

It hasn't been easy and by some measures it ain't living. The worse it gets the more I pour myself into work, which obviously doesn't help to resolve the situation. I find the more my mind is occupied, the less I think about it. The first 10+ years we averaged about twice a month, sometimes a little more and sometimes a little less. The best of times were 4 times a month on average, the worst of times much less. Once a week was never enough for me before, but at this point would be plenty. We went a year without intimacy of any kind when she was pregnant with each of our kids. More recently, we went 5 years averaging about 4 times per year, until I set an ultimatum in the summer of last year. It's been a roller-coaster ride every since. Some months are good, and some not so much. Not sure if I am stupid, insane or just strong willed, but probably an unhealthy combination of all three and more. Seeing the impact divorce had on my youngest sibling has a lot to do with me sticking around so long, combined with a very strong sense of commitment. However, now it is time to focus on what I need to be happy.

[JonDoe]

JD, it sounds like she is doing just enough to keep you from quitting. She has years at playing this game. So do you. Threatening divorce as an aphrodisiac, what a concept.

I found the outcome to be rather bizarre too. More like a WTF? moment. In fact, it actually made me feel uneasy, whereas she told me the next morning that it was comforting to her. I wasn't simply feeling indifferent to the situation. I was puzzled by her behavior, much more so than usual, which made me feel uncomfortable in a similar way to being hugged unexpectedly by a random stranger. I genuinely tried to be in the moment and enjoy the closeness, but I couldn't get past the strangeness of it all. However, if she had showed genuine emotion and apologized for hurting me, perhaps then it would have been welcomed on my part.

The next evening, she half-heartily tried to initiate sex. She sat down next to me and said "If you want to have sex, then I will go get a bikini wax. If your not up for it, then I will go read my book." I was dumb-struck for the second time in as many days. At that moment, a mega dose of Viagra wouldn't have been enough.