[Gary7]

The tie-in is that the reason this is happening more and more I surmise is that women are becoming more dominant in general in western society, but there's always a counter effect, which is that men are thus becoming more submissive in general. The most interesting question then imo is why is that happening.

I'm not sure if there really are more dominant women these days, or if it's just that a woman can be more obvious about the fact that she has some dominant traits and not be a social pariah if she does so. And really do we know if more men are fantasizing about seeing their wife/partner have sex with another male, or is it just that people are more open about their fantasies these days and so we hear about it more often?

Anyway, I can speak for myself, as a counter to your theory...I've occasionally had this fantasy, of seeing my wife have sex with other men. I would call myself the dominant one in my marriage and in the bedroom. I'm not MISTER DOM or anything, with whip and ball gag in hand, but I'm usually the one that takes control and orchestrates the bedroom activities. I also have zero desire to be submissive, although in a role-play scenario I wouldn't have a problem with it if it was a desire of my partner, but I would definitely be acting in that situation.

So why do I have this fantasy? For me a lot of it has to do with fantasizing about my wife enjoying sex so much she would even seek out other men to satisfy herself. That plays into a lot of my sexual fantasies. For example, thinking of my wife masturbating when I'm not around, or having sex with women, because, again, I like the fantasy of her being practically insatiable. Liking sex so much she just can't help herself. In reality I doubt I could handle my wife having sex with another man. I'm too jealous. But I still enjoy the fantasy.

As to the biological argument, who can say that isn't a part of it? I don't know how you would test that and I doubt we would be self-aware enough to understand it if that was indeed a part of the reason. It's certainly a reasonable-sounding theory though.

[jen1447]

I'm not sure if there really are more dominant women these days, or if it's just that a woman can be more obvious about the fact that she has some dominant traits and not be a social pariah if she does so. And really do we know if more men are fantasizing about seeing their wife/partner have sex with another male, or is it just that people are more open about their fantasies these days and so we hear about it more often?

Good questions, but I suspect both things are indeed happening within the context of comparing now to say 50 years ago (as opposed to 5). I think it was pretty much unheard of for men to be anything but the 'boss' in marriages in 1964. It's possible that there were submissive men then too who were just desperately hiding their true nature (and dominant women), but I doubt the numbers would account for the rates we see overtly today. I imagine the feminist movement has a lot to do with it, meaning that women may have had dominant natures all along but only fairly recently started allowing it to show. What about men tho, did feminism make them submissive somehow? That disparity is kind of what makes me think that with a level playing field, women tend to come out on top as having the stronger nature. It's not real surprising from a biological perspective too - we do bear a lot of responsibility for the survival of the species, what with the traditional role of child-rearing. We need to be strong.

I'm not sure what to make of your fantasy about sex-crazed women ....I'm not doubting or criticizing it (both the fantasy and reality, because a lot of us are), I just don't quite know how it fits in.

That's a very academic response... I don't think anyone can have a rebuttle to that. I will take this answer.

Keeping with the theme, I'm tempted to pat you on the head and say "Good boy."

[Gary7]

I imagine the feminist movement has a lot to do with it, meaning that women may have had dominant natures all along but only fairly recently started allowing it to show. What about men tho, did feminism make them submissive somehow? That disparity is kind of what makes me think that with a level playing field, women tend to come out on top as having the stronger nature. It's not real surprising from a biological perspective too - we do bear a lot of responsibility for the survival of the species, what with the traditional role of child-rearing. We need to be strong.

I'm not sure I understand. Your theory is that women are naturally dominant and it's just been suppressed and only recently has that dominance been allowed to actually manifest itself because of societal changes, like feminism?

I don't think I would agree with that. Pretty much everything about men makes us, in general, push to be dominant. From the fact that, generally, we're physically stronger to the fact that our hormones tend to make us more aggressive.

But as with everything, there are aberrations. Some men will be born submissive and some women will be born dominant. That's evolution playing dice using us as the dice. And then there's the fact that I've heard a few men like being submissive because they are expected to be dominant, and are, in everything else in their lives. So when it comes to the bedroom they like having something different.

I'm not sure what to make of your fantasy about sex-crazed women ....I'm not doubting or criticizing it (both the fantasy and reality, because a lot of us are), I just don't quite know how it fits in.

Mostly it was as a counter to the assertion that the fantasy, or reality, has to do with a sub/dom thing. In my case it definitely does not. I'm not saying it couldn't be a reason, but it's definitely not the reason.

As with most things there's probably not a simple answer. There are probably many reasons why the practice occurs and all the ideas are correct, to a certain degree.

[jen1447]

Oh I'm not really a theories girl, I just make observations and then try to elaborate on them.

I don't think I would agree with that. Pretty much everything about men makes us, in general, push to be dominant. From the fact that, generally, we're physically stronger to the fact that our hormones tend to make us more aggressive.

If that's so, how do we explain the modern trend of submissiveness I've seen? (Assuming it's legit. If it's not, ok, but if it is then it's counter to what you're stating about men's natures here.)

I don't really know and obviously I haven't conducted any scientific studies, but I suspect the degree of existence of things like cuckold lifestyles and other female-led relationships are beyond the scope of aberrations, under it's really an epidemic. There are entire subsets of society that seem to be devoted to some of these lifestyles, often using the web as the means to communicate and arrange things. I'd guess the number of active participants number in the millions worldwide, just based on that.

[Motorguy]

Oh I'm not really a theories girl, I just make observations and then try to elaborate on them.


If that's so, how do we explain the modern trend of submissiveness I've seen? (Assuming it's legit. If it's not, ok, but if it is then it's counter to what you're stating about men's natures here.)

I don't really know and obviously I haven't conducted any scientific studies, but I suspect the degree of existence of things like cuckold lifestyles and other female-led relationships are beyond the scope of aberrations, under it's really an epidemic. There are entire subsets of society that seem to be devoted to some of these lifestyles, often using the web as the means to communicate and arrange things. I'd guess the number of active participants number in the millions worldwide, just based on that.

We are getting way to deep here guys on this topic.

[rcoreyus]

I think that society has become more accepting of sexual dominance by women than by men. This may be a backlash against ages of abuse by men.

There was a TV episode (weeds??) where a guy is in the bedroom with his new girlfriend. She pulls out a a giant strapon (it was, cable TV), and it is (strongly implied, not shown), that she does him very aggressively. He is shown limping slightly the next day - but acting like he enjoyed it. The whole think is played up as naughty/ kinky fun. Now imagine how this would play out if they had reversed the genders.

Its not just sex. Men ordering women around is see as abusive, but not the reverse. Think of all the "funny" women ordering men around in TV / movies.

I expect that if this continues we will start to see more cases of real abuse by women, and there will be a gradual backlash and things will swing the other way.

[Motorguy]

I think that society has become more accepting of sexual dominance by women than by men. This may be a backlash against ages of abuse by men.

There was a TV episode (weeds??) where a guy is in the bedroom with his new girlfriend. She pulls out a a giant strapon (it was, cable TV), and it is (strongly implied, not shown), that she does him very aggressively. He is shown limping slightly the next day - but acting like he enjoyed it. The whole think is played up as naughty/ kinky fun. Now imagine how this would play out if they had reversed the genders.

Its not just sex. Men ordering women around is see as abusive, but not the reverse. Think of all the "funny" women ordering men around in TV / movies.

I expect that if this continues we will start to see more cases of real abuse by women, and there will be a gradual backlash and things will swing the other way.

Well there is something wrong if people can associate the difference between fiction or reality they are two completely different idea's. But I see what you talking about it's not right and shows that people don't lead they follow.

[jen1447]

There was a TV episode (weeds??) where a guy is in the bedroom with his new girlfriend. She pulls out a a giant strapon (it was, cable TV), and it is (strongly implied, not shown), that she does him very aggressively. He is shown limping slightly the next day - but acting like he enjoyed it. The whole think is played up as naughty/ kinky fun. Now imagine how this would play out if they had reversed the genders.

Good points, but there's plenty abusive behavior still portrayed on the part of men. An episode of ....I think it may have been 'Mad Men' where one of those guys makes an unattractive woman wear a paper bag on her head during sex comes to mind. I guess Mad Men's set in the 50s tho.

[Motorguy]

Good points, but there's plenty abusive behavior still portrayed on the part of men. An episode of ....I think it may have been 'Mad Men' where one of those guys makes an unattractive woman wear a paper bag on her head during sex comes to mind. I guess Mad Men's set in the 50s tho.

Yes Jenn, the show got some major heat over this episode. When it happen but that how a lot of men treated women back then in the 1940's 1950's. People wanted the episode pull or change but they refuse to do so.

[Gary7]

Oh I'm not really a theories girl, I just make observations and then try to elaborate on them.


If that's so, how do we explain the modern trend of submissiveness I've seen? (Assuming it's legit. If it's not, ok, but if it is then it's counter to what you're stating about men's natures here.)

I don't really know and obviously I haven't conducted any scientific studies, but I suspect the degree of existence of things like cuckold lifestyles and other female-led relationships are beyond the scope of aberrations, under it's really an epidemic. There are entire subsets of society that seem to be devoted to some of these lifestyles, often using the web as the means to communicate and arrange things. I'd guess the number of active participants number in the millions worldwide, just based on that.

I haven't done a study either so both of us are using anecdotal evidence to make our points and so we'd probably be better off discussing the merits of Santa Claus!

And, despite that, I continue.... LOL

Anyway you may have answered your own question. Perhaps the fact that communication is so much easier now, especially anonymous communication, that people are more open to admitting certain lifestyle choices and while it seems that it's becoming more common it's just that people are talking about it more.

I just don't see a selection mechanism for dominance in women that would make it part of their evolution. On the other hand I would probably be more willing to believe that it's possible there's a surge in dominant women due to a backlash because they've been repressed and now society is lifting some of that repression. More of a psychological rather than biological mechanism.

It's an interesting topic though. Thanks for the stimulating discourse!