[Stillness]

Let's try this again:

One of the problematic issues with rape is certain misconceptions that people have about it. For example, they imagine that the scenario in which two people get drunk and have sex, then the woman regrets it and goes to the police is common. So what happened is not really a rape, but regret. That's not commonly the case.

This is why it's so important for people who weren't present not to jump to conclusions about a scenario in which a person has regret or there was pressure. It feeds into the stereotype and makes rape harder to prosecute and most importantly, makes life harder for actual victims.

For a rape to occur there has to be some kind of coercion or lack of consent (or the ability to consent). Scenarios in which things may legally be prosecutable may not be rape at all. A distinction has to be made between the law and what actually happened. Much of that depends on things that no one but the people involved know. For example, if a "no" is a defiant "Do not go any further" or a "You have to seduce me a bit more." Or let's take this scenario. A member makes a post something like this:

"OVERDRINKING

I've got a bad feeling about something that happened last night. I was dancing with someone I've known for a while. I had drunk a little bit too much. I don't remember everything that happened, but I remember them backing me into a closet and me falling in backwards. They claim that's not what happened. I know that we had sex.

I don't like the fact that I was so drunk that I can't remember everything. It gives me a bad feeling."

Would you be thinking this was rape? The title and the comments say nothing about forceful sex or that they feel the other person went too far. You might be thinking, "Well, legally, a drunk person can't consent." So what! How does the person feel about what happened? Do they feel violated because of what happened or is it just the over-drinking that's the problem? I think that before people who weren't involved start screaming "RAPE" and making suggestions about involving the law, lawsuits, and potentially ruining two people's lives, they should let the person actually involved express their feelings.

My friend sp346, whom I love, accused my attitudes of contributing to rape culture and said on another thread (which shall not be mentioned) that it's sexual assault regardless of how the person feels. That's not true. The feelings and the details in the head of the person who went through the experience do matter. They matter more than laws we can cite that seem to match aspects of an account or our personal feelings about sexual assault. What contributes to rape culture is not just disregarding someone who claims that they were raped, but frivolously jumping to conclusions.

[Patti-here]

Well I don't think this had anything to do with Seduction at all

[Stillness]

Well I don't think this had anything to do with Seduction at all

By "this" you mean the original thread?

[Patti-here]

By "this" you mean the original thread?

Yes, I mean Seduction involves enticing, I didn't see any enticing going on, just bone jumping.

[atskitty2]

Stillness, I don't think any of us "frivolously jumped to conclusions". Based on the info she gave, she was assaulted. I read it twice more and I do see where you're coming from, but he fingered her twice. The second time was after, according to her account, she had said something to be a pretty clear indication of no.
You're saying this is a frivolous conclusion to come to, and quite honestly I'm offended by that.
I have not read her other threads. Reading her post, she sounds breathless, hurried and a little sloppy, using a lot of quotes...she seems a bit traumatized. Yes, I do think I'm reading between the lines with this one, as I don't know her normal writing style. I can't access her other posts from my mobile app.

Now, generally speaking: I kind of feel like, any man with self control and respect for himself and his partner would stop any and all contact after any hint of no. If it's a new partner especially, and you don't know how or if they may get playful with the teasing...why take chances of hurting someone or being misunderstood, or even assaulting someone because you can't control your sex drive? I think most of us women folk on this forum are pretty tough , and would likely not only make our desires known, but enforce it and put the smack down on a man who didn't respect that word no.

Bottom line is, if any utterance of reluctance is made, a man or woman should stop the advances. It's just that simple. I don't see what's to debate/discuss here. If someone is impaired, don't bang 'em.

[Something_Awesome]

I did not read the original thread that led up to this one (tried to avoid it) because this topic can get me pretty fired up, but I believe it is still rape if the victim was under such influence of alcohol or drugs that she was unable to consent. So there does not need to be a "No" from the woman in this case. The lack of a "Yes" is enough.

Now it is important to understand that the drugs probably did not prevent her from expressing her desire (or lack there of) to have sex verbally, but that they prevented her from consenting to sex in her own mind. What I mean to say is, she probably did not have the cognitive ability to even know if that was what she wanted or not and therefore could not have verbalized a desire (or lack there of).

[Stillness]

Yes, I do think I'm reading between the lines with this one

At least you acknowledge it. I appreciate that.

I do think it's taking something very serious too lightly to start calling people rape victims and telling them to go to the police or file a lawsuit without having all of the details. That kind of stuff can make people's lives very rough.

I hate rape. I'd put my hatred of it up against anyone's - victim or otherwise. Every time there's 1 false or frivolous claim out of the millions of rapes that occur, it gives actual predators a little more room to operate. People will say, "Women just do it to get money/because they have regrets/out of spite." I want to crush that nonsense. That's the spirit that I come in. I'm not attacking you or anyone. Please don't be offended.

[Stillness]

I did not read the original thread that led up to this one (tried to avoid it) because this topic can get me pretty fired up, but I believe it is still rape if the victim was under such influence of alcohol or drugs that she was unable to consent. So there does not need to be a "No" from the woman in this case. The lack of a "Yes" is enough.

Now it is important to understand that the drugs probably did not prevent her from expressing her desire (or lack there of) to have sex verbally, but that they prevented her from consenting to sex in her own mind. What I mean to say is, she probably did not have the cognitive ability to even know if that was what she wanted or not and therefore could not have verbalized a desire (or lack there of).

I don't think there were any drugs or alcohol involved.

[effy2014]

Stillness:

I could not disagree with you more. The legal, practical, moral and ethical definition of rape is very clear and the FBI agrees with its new definition: “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

The scenario you posit and every other scenario we can imagine to try to excuse the date rapist goes to the heart of the issue: what is consent? The Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault Coalition has a great two great definitions.

What is date rape?
Date Rape is the act of forcing sex on a date without their consent. The rapist could be anyone you go out with: a friend, classmate, neighbor, a friend of a friend, a relative – or he could be your boyfriend. Rape occurs when one individual forces, coerces, or manipulates another individual to have sexual intercourse against the other person’s will and without consent. It is also known as acquaintance rape – rape that occurs when an individual is forced to have sexual intercourse with someone she knows – and doesn’t only happen on dates.

So what IS consent?
Consent can only be given by a person who does not feel pressured or coerced, and who is not under the influence of drugs or alcohol. If you or your partner feels pressured or intimidated to have sex, then you have NOT established consent and any sexual activity is sexual assault. Not saying or hearing a “no,” does not mean “yes”. If you are not sure, ASK!

The hallmark of consent is that it is freely given. Without pressure. Without manipulation. When the person has the capacity to consent. A person who is underage, drunk, high on drugs or in a weakened emotional state cannot give consent. You state that "how a person feels" matters more. Which person? Surely not the rapist. The victim?

If the victim does not report because she (or he) believes the she truly gave consent, then it probably was not rape. BUT, if she does report it because she was drunk or was pressured, it is rape. What the rapist believed does not matter one bit. If he had to pressure the victim, he didn't get consent. Are we truly going back to the days when "no" means maybe and a man who can overcome the no is a great seducer of women. Sorry, IMHO, he is just a rapist.

Let's go back to the scenario. The question is not consent. She couldn't give consent. The question is whether there was any sexual penetration. If there was, the men are rapists.

[effy2014]

"I do think it's taking something very serious too lightly to start calling people rape victims and telling them to go to the police or file a lawsuit without having all of the details. That kind of stuff can make people's lives very rough."

If we are back to the original thread which started this all, I believe that we were giving input and information. The victim -- and much of what she said indicates she could very well have been one -- has the right to report or not.