[Stillness]

My concern was that some people who were not there and heard part of one side of the story SEEMED to be picking up on parts to decide that the OP was not intelligent or "sophisticated" enough to know what happened.

Women should be empowered and stand up for themselves, but they're not qualified to know whether or not they consented. Better leave that to Big Brother.

I have seen plenty of cases that would shake your belief in the "criminal justice" system.

Thank you!

You're saying all of the stuff I was thinking ad had even written. I just backspaced because I got exhausted with this whole thing. The "system" is a double edged sword. Try to cut and get cut yourself. Some of this goes to worldview, which is hard to overcome and why I just let it go. When people are part of the system and citing laws in such a way that indicates that they don't see the massive flaws and egregious violations of justice (small "j" )that it inflicts, a post on WH is probably not going to change their minds.

Besides that, a lot of people keep missing the entire point, even after I demonstrated it by someone accusing my wife of date raping me. I suspect a lot more would have done the same thing if I wouldn't have saved them by showing my hand. The point is not that victimized people shouldn't use the system, but that we should be careful before jumping to conclusions about a situation we were not in. All the stuff about the law is muddying the waters.

[Stillness]

It seems incredible how cavalierly people are willing to treat what could be a false accusation and how that can permanently scar an innocent person.

Justice, you are going to suck up all of my likes. Please stop.

[Justice]

Justice, you are going to suck up all of my likes. Please stop.

I was thinking the same thing!

[Baboy]

I think Stillness and I were pretty clear that neither of us thought that the OP (on the other thread) was treated properly or decently. But she did even say she was confused and that she worried about it went too far and about her reputation.

I have re-read the OP and find no reference to worry about reputation.

My concern was that some people who were not there and heard part of one side of the story SEEMED to be picking up on parts to decide that the OP was not intelligent or "sophisticated" enough to know what happened. In some ways it seemed (to me) to be Almost "infantilizing" or at least disrespectful to women.

This has nothing to do with women v. men, or being disrespectful of anyone. Anyone, of either sex, can be confused, uncertain, in need of advice. You are absolutely right about "people who were not there". That is why some us suggested the OP at least see a counselor. There is no way to really come to much of a conclusion about a matter such as this from an anonymous poster, setting out a brief summary of alleged facts, and for the matter to be effectively resolved by other anonymous posters offering opinions. The matter might take on a very different color and texture in a face-to-face interview where one can observe body language, pick up cues from tone of voice, emotional projection, etc.

Also as Stillness and I both had written about, IMO it puts a potentially unfair burden on the man (and make it seem like women ARE the "weaker" or less intelligent sex) that if BOTH parties are drunk or under the influence that some would classify HIM a rapist and her the poor innocent who doesn't have to own her own behavior (again clearly this does not apply if one party drugs the other!)

The OP said nothing about drugs or alcohol being involved and I did not address that issue before and I see no need now.

But honestly just like the post that says.....NEVER EVER get in the car with a stranger.... Please at least learn how to protect yourself as much as possible.

Now who is doing the infantilizing? You seem to be suggesting the OP is at fault for being simple-minded and not obeying the rule taught to children not to go with strangers. Also, I did not apprehend the OP to be saying the man in question was a stranger.

Woah - You apparently know different people than I do -and truly that is very good for you.

(edit)

OH My Goodness - I am kind of speechless at this. It seems incredible how cavalierly people are willing to treat what could be a false accusation and how that can permanently scar an innocent person.

I'm not sure anyone was being "cavalier".

I agree with many here that rape and sexual assaults are truly heinous and very serious and must be treated a such. But I also agree with Stillness' points about treating the accusation lightly does not serve the victims.

You have fundamentally misunderstood what some of us are saying. No one said anything about bandying about allegations of criminal conduct "lightly". But when someone comes along and says they had a bad experience, bad enough that they cry out here for help, and when you read their blog, which is referenced on this site and there for all to read, which describes some rather serious misconduct, and the poster's own perception of having been treated like a cheap piece of meat, I'll reject out of hand the suggestion that she should just suck it up, refrain from obtaining counseling or any detached, professional guidance, and simply chalk it up to experience.

[rcoreyus]

Please try to remember that the posts here, both the original and later comments are generally written quickly by (mostly) non-professional writers. Its easy for different people to get very different impressions of the events from the same words.

I think different people have had very different experiences with the criminal justice system in the US. A bad experience or knowledge of oen one can dramatically change someone's viewpoint because so much damage is done. My experience with a judge / CPS taking a 5 year old girl out of a home where she was happy and safe and putting her in the foster care system has darkened my image of that program (I was the foster parent and I had detailed knowledge of what had happened that the "system" had no interest in hearing). My negative experience tends to make me ignore the presumably large number of cases where CPS has done great good.

Similarly I'm sure people have had positive or negative experience with law enforcement when they report sexual assault. Also don't forget that some ethnic groups in general have a very bad impression of law enforcement - sometimes well justified.

[jen1447]

None of that changes the concept and reality of the rule of law tho. We are a nation of laws, and as citizens we've all signed on to live under that system, like it or not, and personal experiences notwithstanding.

I think a baseline mistrust of law enforcement and the judicial system betrays a fundamental assumption that they are 'evil' to begin with, and only occasionally break outside the norm and become good. I think any reasonable person would reject that out of hand and assume the opposite. There's corruption at some level most everywhere you go and in almost every institution (government and otherwise), but to assume that it's the basic building blocks that those institutions start from is rather inane. The judicial system for example was not devised in order for evil people to find ways to harm other people. The fact that it occasionally fails or is occasionally misused is not evidence of its overall illegitimacy.

My BF has frequent contact with law enforcement (the professional kind lol, not run-ins with the law) and some interaction with the judicial system - probably much more than anyone's personal and anecdotal experiences related here aside from Baboy - and his opinion of both is overwhelmingly favorable. There are generally good people at the heart of the courts and in police departments everywhere. Like Baboy said, thinking that courts and their officers are operating with and are committed to some sinister agenda overall is not just unrealistic, it's a bit silly - it would be impossible to orchestrate such a widespread conspiracy, and thinking that they'd all form that way organically and independently goes beyond the pale of even extreme cynicism and into psychosis.

[Stillness]

It wasn't the first post, but the first or second that mentioned her concern about her reputation.

I did read her blog. It sounded more unpleasant than what she posted. Curiously she never states her feelings about whether or not she feels she was violated. Some of her friends said she was assaulted and others said she was not - just like on these boards.

And you don't have to work in law enforcement or the justice department to have been victimized by it or know someone who was. It's odd that so many have this angelic view of government when every government on this planet, now and throughout history has had it's fair share of corruption. How often do we see videos of police officers manhandling someone or violating their rights, or see people released from prison after decades only to find out about the misconduct that placed them there when they were innocent? (What really burns me is when the state, knowing their innocent, manages to arrange things so they can't seek damages). How many times do we have to see cases like rcoreyus' where children are mistreated before we acknowledge that we don't live in a utopia and that government is run by flawed people?

[DreamP346]

I have tried to stay out of this discussion, because it would just get me to heated up, but I just had to add my opinion. Some responses to what has been said so far.

Stillness, you mention just wanting people in your life to be safe. How can accepting pressured sex as legal behavior be keeping people safe?

Claret, I love the comments you provided. The only disagreement is sometimes victims do not recognized that they have been assaulted. We live in a society that teaches that a man repeated asking for sex is manly. We encounter rape cultural constantly. We blame the victim. The very fact there is a discussion going on about whether pressured sex is a clear example of rape culture. I do not argue that victims feel degraded, isolated, valueless and everything else you wrote. I do think many time victims do not believe what happened to them was a legal crime. They often think they did something wrong and caused it. They often question if they gave misleading messages (all that victim blaming). They often think they deserved it. That is why there is so much guilt associated with an act that a victim had no control over.


I want to remind folks about a case 2 decades ago. You may recall the central park jogger rape case. A couple of teenagers were pressured into confessing to a crime they never committed. They were never physically threatened to do anything. Their resistance was slowly broken down by hours of verbal interrogation by a police. Coercion does not have to be physical and does not need to include physical harm. And when there is a power imbalance between the parties, that can be even harder to resist.

[Stillness]

Stillness, you mention just wanting people in your life to be safe. How can accepting pressured sex as legal behavior be keeping people safe?

I think this is a bit of a loaded question. It implies that pressuring someone to do something is bad. In and of itself it's not. It's neutral. That why we have positive and negative peer pressure. As I mentioned, the girl who took my virginity pressured me to have sex. I'd object, but with her words and actions she'd continue. There was no rape, though. The two are not necessarily related.

It's coercion that's makes sex an assault. You continue to be mistaken about this and about rape culture, in my opinion. You're willing to jump to conclusions without letting someone express themselves. That doesn't empower anyone but rapists. They'll say that women are quick to get emotional and illogical and cry "rape!" without regard to the facts. They'll use that as a smokescreen.

[jen1447]

For someone to say that they know someone who they believe has been falsely labelled A SEX OFFENDER, and to what seems to me to rather flippantly say - "yes that sucks....BUT..."

J, please quote kitty in her entirety and in the proper context. She didn't say -

I personally know of a guy who's on the sex offender list for something I don't believe he did-nobody does, and it sucks but . . .

as if to shrug her shoulders and leave it at sucking that a person was wrongly accused and placed on a sex offender list but otherwise it's okay. She said -

I personally know of a guy who's on the sex offender list for something I don't believe he did-nobody does, and it sucks but I wouldn't advise any girl any differently because of that. If someone claims they were violated it warrants some investigation by someone. Period.

the boldened part totally informing the preceding statement and changing the meaning to essentially 'while it's unfortunate that sometimes people are wrongly accused and punished, that's not sufficient reason to discourage women from reporting potential rapes, and if anyone feels that they were raped, it should be investigated by authorities, period." I fail to see how anyone could argue with that point in the slightest with any credibility.