[Guest]

minivan -

let me first say that i'm responding to the points you made - but i don't know you or your wife, of course. what you guys decide is OK for you is what's OK for you. period. i'm not here to tell you that you shouldn't be OK with what you two decide you want.

i do find often that what a guy thinks is OK is really just a concession on the part of his wife. not accusing you of that - it's just a familiar observation.

i was pretty sure you were being sarcastic with the getting drunk & picking up chicks remark. but the spirit of that scenario is the same - and is very common among relationships. the point is that you're igniting your sexual flames with something other than her.

many times a wife will convince herself to be OK with that because, hey, he's not having an affair. he's not with a real person. the same anonymity a porn user enjoys - she can somewhat hide in as well.

but typically, at the root of that decision, is a settling more than a choosing. would your wife choose for you to be into porn? or is she settling for that as a better option that extra marital affairs?

i wouldn't know - that's somewhat rhetorical.

so what options would i suggest? you've already seen a therapist together & discussed it at length. i guess i would want to know what came of that. not knowing, i would say that meeting in the middle is the best option. you want it twice a day she wants it once a month. so start with once a week, maybe twice a week. it's not exactly what either of you wants, but closer than what you have now.

caroline & i disagree on one point - i am opposed to porn. i agree with her comment that it is a cancer. as such, i'm opposed to it. it never brings about anything good. at best, people can use it & skate by some of the more dramatic problems. but it always - always - by design leads the user away from the people he cares about.

knowing that - i would offer that once a month - that is, you sacrificing your desire for more sex - is a better option that porn.

your question about function: compulsive masturbation, over years, leads to erectile problems for a couple of reasons. first, as guys age, they lose their ability to stay hard for hours. most compulsive porn users will sit in front of a computer for hours, bringing themselves close to orgasm over & over. aging male bodies can't sustain that.

more importantly, stimulating yourself to extreme images - i don't know what you're into, but usually people look at porn that is exciting. the girls are younger, ****tier, the acts are dirtier. if they weren't, they probably wouldn't be drawn to porn in the first place.

so when you train your body to respond to that kind of arousal, it loses it's ability - and desire - to respond to things that are less exciting. like real life sex.

this is why so many women on here complain that their husbands don't desire sex anymore - but they find them using porn.

gotta run - i'll continue later. hope i've made a little sense. if not, let me know & i'll try to clarify.

i do want to make sure you know that i'm not trying to set myself up as the one who's supposed to decide what's right for your marriage. i've studied this isssue at length & have never seen a situation that i felt benefitted from porn. yours may be the first - let's keep talking & see what happens.

[MiniVanMan]

Good stuff

Great responses. I just want to say that this is the most... how should I put this... comfortable forum I've ever been a part of, and I've visited many forums on the net. It is refreshing to be in a discussion in which people can post their opinions and not be flamed. This is just great.

Secondly I'm almost late for work and don't have a lot of time to post, and unfortunately I'll be away for my computer for the next several days and won't be able to reply as completely as I'd like until I return. (Away from my computer??? Oh ****! That means no PORN!!! What on Earth will I do???... just kidding)

CarolineWH:
Your long paragraph that begins "Back before I went to some Message Boards" really hit home. A lot of that was certainly me. Problem is my wife doesn't want me currently, so if I completely lost interest in her I don't think she'd be affected at all. In fact I think she feel relieved.

whilhelm:
Interesting stuff. Thanks. I think a lot of what you say is true about me, but referring back to the title of this thread, I think my wife is happy that I have an outlet that is not her.

One more thing. Porn is not an obsession with me. It is more like a mild hobby. I don't spend much time viewing it. Maybe a few minutes a day, if that. And as to what I'm into, it's some of the mildest stuff out there. More akin to nudity than porn.

Dang, I wish I had more time to write. I look forward to checking back here next week.

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful posts.

- MiniVanMan

[MiniVanMan]

MiniVanMan goes on a rant

Been away too long. But I'm back and now want to make a few points in response.

This business about becoming conditioned to porn and not wanting my wife... I just don't see that happening. Yes she's getting older but even when I married her (we were in our 20s, now in our 40s) she was not even close to as good looking as the women in the magazines and videos I was into (I'm no prize, either). That didn't stop me from wanting her every day. There's nothing like a real, warm, responsive human being, no matter how good the porn might be in comparison.

I recently read on the net Ten Things Women Should Know About Men and one of them was "We fall in lust ten times a day, but that doesn't mean we're leaving you". That is what I'm talking about. I see attractive women every day. Attractive faces and attractive bodies (with clothes on!). They turn me on, and that's just the way I am. My primal instinct is to have sex with these women, just like the ones in the porn I watch. But it doesn't mean that I come home after work and can't get excited by my wife. It's never happened.

Truth is, the more she rejects me the more I turn to porn. There was a brief few weeks about a year ago when counseling was working and we had sex several times a week for two or three weeks. I was blown away when I realized that I'd not turned to porn the whole time. Real sex is better then porn, even if it's my 42 year old mother-of-two average-looking-at-best wife. And it always will be.

It may be that allowing my porn is a concession on the part of my wife, but that is something she conceded to not long after we met, and before we fell in love. If it bothered her at all over the last 20 years, she has chosen not to mention it. She shouldn't expect me to change.

Likewise, I married a woman with a sex drive, and I didn't marry her expecting her to change, but she did. As I said earlier she flat out told me recently that she could happily live the rest of her life without sex. For me, and just about every guy I've ever talked to about this, sex is right up there on the list of priorities just short of food, shelter, and world peace. She knew that when she married me but it wasn't long before my caresses started to tickle rather than turn her on. Then they started to bug her rather than tickle her. Finally it progressed to simple and immediate rejection.

I've read that a large part of a man's self esteem is based on how good his sex life is. When I read that I dismissed it out of hand as total BS. But the more I thought about it the more I realized how correct that statement was. A good sex life just makes everything better, and for the last 18 years or so my sex life has sucked. Constant rejection from my wife has turned me into a pathetic, spineless little man.

Boy, re-reading that makes it sound really harsh. Like a classic self esteem train wreck. But it's true, I have to admit. My wife, the woman I married, used to not be able to keep her hands off me. She used to lay in bed after sex with a smile on her face and declare "what did I do to deserve you???". Now she routinely rejects me out of hand. If that means porn then so be it. I need at least some semblance of a sex life.

My wife says I'm bitter. Wouldn't you be?

[C]

Been away too long. But I'm back and now want to make a few points in response.

This business about becoming conditioned to porn and not wanting my wife... I just don't see that happening. Yes she's getting older but even when I married her (we were in our 20s, now in our 40s) she was not even close to as good looking as the women in the magazines and videos I was into (I'm no prize, either). That didn't stop me from wanting her every day. There's nothing like a real, warm, responsive human being, no matter how good the porn might be in comparison.

I recently read on the net Ten Things Women Should Know About Men and one of them was "We fall in lust ten times a day, but that doesn't mean we're leaving you". That is what I'm talking about. I see attractive women every day. Attractive faces and attractive bodies (with clothes on!). They turn me on, and that's just the way I am. My primal instinct is to have sex with these women, just like the ones in the porn I watch. But it doesn't mean that I come home after work and can't get excited by my wife. It's never happened.

Truth is, the more she rejects me the more I turn to porn. There was a brief few weeks about a year ago when counseling was working and we had sex several times a week for two or three weeks. I was blown away when I realized that I'd not turned to porn the whole time. Real sex is better then porn, even if it's my 42 year old mother-of-two average-looking-at-best wife. And it always will be.

It may be that allowing my porn is a concession on the part of my wife, but that is something she conceded to not long after we met, and before we fell in love. If it bothered her at all over the last 20 years, she has chosen not to mention it. She shouldn't expect me to change.

Likewise, I married a woman with a sex drive, and I didn't marry her expecting her to change, but she did. As I said earlier she flat out told me recently that she could happily live the rest of her life without sex. For me, and just about every guy I've ever talked to about this, sex is right up there on the list of priorities just short of food, shelter, and world peace. She knew that when she married me but it wasn't long before my caresses started to tickle rather than turn her on. Then they started to bug her rather than tickle her. Finally it progressed to simple and immediate rejection.

I've read that a large part of a man's self esteem is based on how good his sex life is. When I read that I dismissed it out of hand as total BS. But the more I thought about it the more I realized how correct that statement was. A good sex life just makes everything better, and for the last 18 years or so my sex life has sucked. Constant rejection from my wife has turned me into a pathetic, spineless little man.

Boy, re-reading that makes it sound really harsh. Like a classic self esteem train wreck. But it's true, I have to admit. My wife, the woman I married, used to not be able to keep her hands off me. She used to lay in bed after sex with a smile on her face and declare "what did I do to deserve you???". Now she routinely rejects me out of hand. If that means porn then so be it. I need at least some semblance of a sex life.

My wife says I'm bitter. Wouldn't you be?

YES, Now deliver what you wrote to the doorstep of every wife that is failing her husband. I am one of these women that lays in bed and can't move asking my man "What did I do to deserve you." It just plain feels so good.....

[Guest]

well you've got two separate issues - porn, and your sex life.

i'll be the first to recognize i've given you nothing for the latter. likewise, i see that you're treating the second with the first - and lumping them together as though they're the same issue.

you've got a real problem, i understand. so when i rant that porn is the root of all evil, your legitimate response is, "OK, but what about my failing sex life??"

i do want to reiterate, porn is not doing you any favors. i realize that does nothing to ease your rejection problem. that doesn't make it any less true.

you may have a right to be bitter - i have no reason to think you don't. but i've noticed, just in the few interactions we've had, that the tone of your descriptions has changed pretty dramatically. you've gone from a very carefree, "hey, here's another viewpoint that works for us" attitude to an angry, "hey, i'm taking what i can get whether or not it's bad" attitude.

i don't know you or your wife & can't begin to speak about the complexities of your relationship (tho' i'd be interested to "listen" on here & respond to whatever degree you wanted). but i'm confident, as arrogant as it may sound, that if there is hope for your sex life to be awakened, your interest in/use of porn will impede your progress to that end.

i've seen, as many here have i'm sure, some abominable relationships find their way to bliss - but never with porn.

[rcoreyus]

A man whose wife doesn't want to sleep with him has only a few options:

Celibacy. (not an attractive option for many - and seems somehow unfair to the man who got marrried expecting a normal sex life)

Cheating. (Generally considered an immoral thing to do).

Masturbation. OK. Many men use porn as a "toy" when masturbating.

Divorce: Morally OK, but seems drastic to leave a woman only because she won't sleep with you.


His wife may not change (mine won't). It is not something he is, or is not doing, she just doesn't like sex. I've put up with this for >10 years now. Absolutely nothing has helped. I know this is difficult to understand for men and women who enjoy sex, but it does happen.

[ChelseaRenee]

Been away too long. But I'm back and now want to make a few points in response.

This business about becoming conditioned to porn and not wanting my wife... I just don't see that happening. Yes she's getting older but even when I married her (we were in our 20s, now in our 40s) she was not even close to as good looking as the women in the magazines and videos I was into (I'm no prize, either). That didn't stop me from wanting her every day. There's nothing like a real, warm, responsive human being, no matter how good the porn might be in comparison.

I recently read on the net Ten Things Women Should Know About Men and one of them was "We fall in lust ten times a day, but that doesn't mean we're leaving you". That is what I'm talking about. I see attractive women every day. Attractive faces and attractive bodies (with clothes on!). They turn me on, and that's just the way I am. My primal instinct is to have sex with these women, just like the ones in the porn I watch. But it doesn't mean that I come home after work and can't get excited by my wife. It's never happened.

Truth is, the more she rejects me the more I turn to porn. There was a brief few weeks about a year ago when counseling was working and we had sex several times a week for two or three weeks. I was blown away when I realized that I'd not turned to porn the whole time. Real sex is better then porn, even if it's my 42 year old mother-of-two average-looking-at-best wife. And it always will be.

It may be that allowing my porn is a concession on the part of my wife, but that is something she conceded to not long after we met, and before we fell in love. If it bothered her at all over the last 20 years, she has chosen not to mention it. She shouldn't expect me to change.

Likewise, I married a woman with a sex drive, and I didn't marry her expecting her to change, but she did. As I said earlier she flat out told me recently that she could happily live the rest of her life without sex. For me, and just about every guy I've ever talked to about this, sex is right up there on the list of priorities just short of food, shelter, and world peace. She knew that when she married me but it wasn't long before my caresses started to tickle rather than turn her on. Then they started to bug her rather than tickle her. Finally it progressed to simple and immediate rejection.

I've read that a large part of a man's self esteem is based on how good his sex life is. When I read that I dismissed it out of hand as total BS. But the more I thought about it the more I realized how correct that statement was. A good sex life just makes everything better, and for the last 18 years or so my sex life has sucked. Constant rejection from my wife has turned me into a pathetic, spineless little man.

Boy, re-reading that makes it sound really harsh. Like a classic self esteem train wreck. But it's true, I have to admit. My wife, the woman I married, used to not be able to keep her hands off me. She used to lay in bed after sex with a smile on her face and declare "what did I do to deserve you???". Now she routinely rejects me out of hand. If that means porn then so be it. I need at least some semblance of a sex life.

My wife says I'm bitter. Wouldn't you be?

I'm sorry, but why the hell SHOULD she wanna have sex with you? You've admitted that you hardly even find her attractive, what makes you think she would wanna be in a sexual situation with someone who's just sort of thinking she's disgusting? I'm sorry, but good LORD. I don't blame her. You feel this way, and you think she doesn't sense it? She knows more than you think.

[Fallen1]

I'm sorry, but why the hell SHOULD she wanna have sex with you? You've admitted that you hardly even find her attractive, what makes you think she would wanna be in a sexual situation with someone who's just sort of thinking she's disgusting? I'm sorry, but good LORD. I don't blame her. You feel this way, and you think she doesn't sense it? She knows more than you think.

Yeah, those same comments you referred to/highlighted stood out to me also. If she knows he feels this way I can see where she wouldn't be quite so eager myself.

[C]

[quote=MiniVanMan;29160]Been away too long. But I'm back and now want to make a few points in response.

This business about becoming conditioned to porn and not wanting my wife... I just don't see that happening. Yes she's getting older but even when I married her (we were in our 20s, now in our 40s) she was not even close to as good looking as the women in the magazines and videos I was into (I'm no prize, either). That didn't stop me from wanting her every day. There's nothing like a real, warm, responsive human being, no matter how good the porn might be in comparison.

I recently read on the net Ten Things Women Should Know About Men and one of them was "We fall in lust ten times a day, but that doesn't mean we're leaving you". That is what I'm talking about. I see attractive women every day. Attractive faces and attractive bodies (with clothes on!). They turn me on, and that's just the way I am. My primal instinct is to have sex with these women, just like the ones in the porn I watch. But it doesn't mean that I come home after work and can't get excited by my wife. It's never happened.

Truth is, the more she rejects me the more I turn to porn. There was a brief few weeks about a year ago when counseling was working and we had sex several times a week for two or three weeks. I was blown away when I realized that I'd not turned to porn the whole time. Real sex is better then porn, even if it's my 42 year old mother-of-two average-looking-at-best wife. And it always will be.quote]

Here I will agree with ChelseaRenee. I read it too fast and thought you were praising her. Now I wish I could edit my post but I can't.....

With your attitude, yours could be one of the reasons that a woman has for not wanting sex. Whether they are not as beautiful or not as thin you build them up....

A man who does these things makes a woman feel young and you obviously do not.....So you probably will continue to live in Porn Heaven and she will be happy....

Yeah, those same comments you referred to/highlighted stood out to me also. If she knows he feels this way I can see where she wouldn't be quite so eager myself.

Again I did not read it right...Too much in a hurry to leave the house but what I wonder is how can a man sit and look at Porn like they do and love it and then be able to come to bed with their wife who is older or fatter or thinner or whoever she is and find the same emotions. My husband does not watch Porn. I have seen his reaction with it a couple of times and it is wild. Not that I forbid it but it is a different man that I am seeing. More the animal in the man and truly I do not like it. Sex is wilder which I do like once in a while but on our terms not another woman naked who is turning him on. When he was watching Porn one eye was on the screen and the other on me and this was very obvious to me. Not that he ignored me but that he was not in the same place with me. He was in bed with the girl on the screen and not me.....I was just satifying his pleasure and only thinking about this now do I realize that this is how it was......I had a different man in bed with me watching a screen filled with lust.....Really sad when you think about it.....But true....

[Rose5]

Minivanman, I think evryone has jumped to conclusions here. I understood your point to be that you still find your wife attractive. Beauty and attraction are two different things. I think a lot of men are handsome but there are only a handful I find attractive, they are not necessarily the most handsome to everyone else.
I will not make any comments on the porn because it has never been part of my marriage(that I know of).
I would like to comment on your situation because it was similar to mine. We also had a 10 year dry spell of having sex once a month. Why did my sex drive dimninish? It really never did, it was just supressed. It was all a result of our relationship.You're wondering how we fixed our relationship. Well we haven't. Nothing in our relationship outside the bedroom has changed except my attitude. For women sex is very much interwound with our emotions. Men, at least my husband, has sex and emotions in 2 independent compartments in the brain. They don't seem to connect at all. Well I decided that if my husband could do it so could I. It would be ideal if our newfound sex life could improve our relationship, but not likely.
The good news is it works more permanently the other way around. I was bringing my emotions into the bedroom and that might be what your wife is doing. Does she ever comment on what she would like to see changed? Pay attention to what she says. It's worth a try. Like you said it's better with someone else than by yourself.