[cougar]

miserable about porn

I never thought I would register but I had to say something about this topic. I'm 38 and I have had such a hard time with masturbation and porn my entire adult life to the point of suicide attempts and just plain hurting myself because of it. It was all about the guilt and who does it and who doesn't and how much is ok and what's normal. It totally consumed me. I've been to plenty of doctors and everyone of them without hesitation (men and women dr.'s) said there is absolutely nothing wrong with me. Everyone is different. I still had trouble with it. My last attempt at hurting myself happened almost 1 month ago now. Down the road I'll probably be paying for it. What I had to do was literally go to my family (it was this or die) and tell them my problems and what bothers me. They gave me 100% support and they also said there is nothing wrong with doing that (porn and masturbation). They said that they too at times would do it and have done it. It's ok, as long as it doesn't affect other things in your life. Since this day I actually do it less (porn and masturbation) because it doesn't consume me anymore. It's ok. You do have to respect your partner though always. Do it when your sure they won't be around or watch it together. Sorry so long, actually have more to say but...... Good luck with it, but keep an open mind Many factors make up a relationship, work with him

[anonymouswhitefemale]

I can't be bothered to really get into this debate for the nth time...

pigwidgeon: I'm sorry to hear about your religious upbringing, I know and hate that it really can create crippling psychological problems across the board.

What you've written in your last post, I couldn't agree more. You have basically EXACTLY the same opinion as me, which is nice since I'm a guy. It's nice to have an affirmation that I'm not just being a thoughtless horrible guy, haha.

I guess I need reassurance that men love real women and that it is worth it for me to feel and be attractive.

We do love real women, and the more you fuss and "love" us, and have sex with us, the more of the guys sexual life you'll take up.. Men want to be in a relationship with a woman, but they also want in interesting and varied sex life.. If the sex side becomes stale then they'll lose interested in the woman - it wont be on purpose, but without good sex it'll generally be a dissatisfying relationship...

How can any man really be attracted to a real woman if he's just going to whack off to porn later? Does he even care about women? I feel like women are worthless because no matter how awesome they are, men will always orgasm to other naked women.

As you well know here, the obvious contradiction as it could be flipped to your boyfriend and Firefly guy (which one? the captain, the brute or the whiney pilot?) .. Anyway, basically, we choose to make a physical commitment to someone, and you can feel greatly for that someone, but still enjoy something varied. To be honest, especially something varied - as variation is in mens blood... Whether we want it or not it's the biological imperitive (I know many disagree with this, but I don't think those people realise just how governed we all are constantly by our physiologies). But because we care for you, we wont to anything to hurt you, so wont cheat on you... We just like some privacy in our minds, as I think you'd go crazy and maybe kill yourself if you only ever thought about one thing with one person...


II know those are by no means definitive answers to those troubles, just how I feel on them.

[Fallen1]

To be honest, especially something varied - as variation is in mens blood... Whether we want it or not it's the biological imperitive (I know many disagree with this, but I don't think those people realise just how governed we all are constantly by our physiologies).

Again I have to say this seems only to be just an excuse ..... sorry if I seem argumentative but it just doesn't make any sense. If men are so ruled by their biological make up then why aren't we women? As I said in my earlier post, if we use that argument then we women are programmed to have babies - true it seems that when we ovulate we do tend to "crave" sex more but you don't see us on those days wondering the streets and seeking out the fittest/strongest male to mate with. You also don't see us walking around with numerous children on our heals. If it is true then what you are basically saying is that men have not evolved from their primitive beginnings but we women have?

[MiniVanMan]

Hmmm...

ChelseaRenee: I never meant to say that we should just blame biology and that's that. My point was that biology is responsible for the physical desire and response. We certainly do have brains and we should use them to guide our actions.

Fallen1: "We are programmed to do so" is not just an excuse, but it is a reason. It explains why we react the way we do. Are you suggesting that pigwidgeon isn't programmed to react the way she has, and that she needs to get over her programming? Also, having 23 babies with other men is cheating, and is a FAR CRY from watching videos of naked women.

pigwidgeon: I think you understand that you have a double standard here. You want it to be okay for you to think of other men while you masturbate but not for your boyfriend to do the same (er, with women).

One thing that I think happened between the two of you was a lack of communication early in your relationship. I think it would have been helpful for you to have mentioned how you feel about porn early on, and I think your boyfriend should have discussed the fact that he watches porn as soon as it got remotely serious. It was within the first 2 or 3 weeks after I started seeing the woman who would be my wife that I told her about my porn collection and how much I enjoyed it. She shrugged and continued to date me and fall in love with me and eventually marry me. Porn has never, ever been mentioned as an issue in all the counseling and heart-to-heart talks we've had over our entire 17+ years of our marriage. I think it was important that I got that out in the open right away so she'd know exactly who she was dating.

- MiniVanMan

[MiniVanMan]

Women

Fallen1: If you want to talk primitive beginnings, the idea is that men copulate with numerous women in order to propagate the species. They can go around inseminating woman after woman and create a lot of offspring. This helps create the maximum number of descendants.

Women, though, optimize their ability to propagate the species by having one strong male inseminate them and then keeping him around through pregnancy and to help her raise the offspring. It takes a huge amount of time and energy expenditure to reproduce, and she has a limited reproductive lifespan in which to do so. She can only produce a little over one child per year in the years in which she is fertile. Men can produce hundreds, so they are biologically driven to do so.

That's the theory, anyway.

Also, by definition men and women have different biology, so trying to say that we should act the same if it's biological doesn't work.

- MiniVanMan

[Guest]

actually, van - i'd have to disagree & say it's not a reason, it's an excuse.

i think what fallen is noting is the double standard that suggests it's healthy & understandable for men to check their reason at the door in obedience to their DNA, but not OK for women to do the same thing (that is, obeying biology blindly, not behaving the same way).

i agree with you, men are "wired" for sex with lots of different women. many people also suggest men are wired for sex with young women, because they tend to be more fertile.

what fallen is saying - & i agree - is, basically, "so what?"

men are also "wired" to be entirely selfish & territorial. if you obey your biological blueprint, your character won't change from infancy to adulthood. you come in to the world seeking your immediate & entirely self-absorbed gratification.

and then you begin the process of learning to tame your "wirings" so you can be a member of society, enjoy healthy relationships, experience empathy for others, etc.

we don't seem to pull this card until we get caught crawling back to the infancy stage with our careless gratification of sexual desires.

when we revert & act selfishly in other areas, we're pretty quick to apologize. but when we want to curl up with a good pornographic website, we stand defensively & point to our DNA.

it really seems silly to me.

Also, having 23 babies with other men is cheating, and is a FAR CRY from watching videos of naked women.

i think you're viewing this through male eyes - understandably. but it's not such a far cry for many women. it's a very far cry for men.

that's why this decision - for both sexes - should not be based on emotional reaction. which is my advice to the author of this thread. if guys base their decision to use & tolerate their partner using porn on their emotions, they will use it & not care if their partner uses it. we separate sex from emotion, and assume our female partners do to.

likewise, women connect the two seamlessly - and apply that to their male partners. they emotionally get upset about their guy looking at porn because they believe their partner is denying what they would have to deny in order to use porn - that emotional intimacy that women experience through sex.

both have to separate themselves from their emotional reaction to porn, get educated about what porn is & how it impacts people - then decide if it's healthy & something they want to be a part of their relationship.

that's how most of us treat other recreations & pleasures. we don't excersize because of an emotional reaction to it, but because we see it as positive. i wouldn't be offended if my wife started using cocaine because of my emotional aversion to it - but because it will be unhealthy for her & for the lifestyle we share.

same with porn. most women will always react negatively & most men will always react neutrally, if we base it on emotion.

don't deny your emotion - but try to use your reason.

[Guest]

pigwidgeon: I'm sorry to hear about your religious upbringing, I know and hate that it really can create crippling psychological problems across the board.

interestingly, it looks as though you're describing the affect porn is having on her, rather than that of religion...

[anonymouswhitefemale]

I just wish women would stop using biology a mas an excuse when they become grouchy unhappy angry people onceonth. Just because their hormones are going crazy, everyone should have far more control over their mental states to allow mere nature and physical chemical levels...

How many women say they felt like they were acting completely ******ly during their period? Irrationally lashing out at people etc etc.



As for why aren't women having tens of babies - this is because of contraception and consequence.... If contraception didn't exist basically all women would be pregnant all the time. Nature didn't need to make women even more promiscuous, because they're already at the limit of their childrearing abilities (before contraception). As for women finding alpha males - remember, that women only choose from the options they are given. They dont hunt an alpha, they wait for an alpha to display himself above the other suitors. And they definately STILL DO THIS. If you can't see this in todays society, you live in a cave.

I am certainly not saying that women are more evolved than men, maybe just that mens set of behaviour and instinctual goes do not really fit into society. We are meant to fight, dominate, rape and hunt. Today, we can do none of that. Women, on the other hand, are meant to raise a familiy, nurture them etc. - which IS present in todays society. So basically, I think masculinity is lost in our world, and us men have to constantly struggle with that - which leads to fights, affairs etc.

interestingly, it looks as though you're describing the affect porn is having on her, rather than that of religion...

No, I'm not. She herself said that she couldn't even think of sex positively, that it was always something bad, and that she could never even fantasize, and that she feels it's made her different to others, and something that she needs to learn. She's been stunted by religion. She's been a bit hurt by porn.

Willheim, about women linking emotion and sex and applying it to us men... I don't really care what other people think about how I am... If someone has a problem with me because I'm black, that's their problem not mine. If someone is offended by me because I wear a tracksuit, that's their problem, not mine. I did nothing to directly hurt those people, they just took it upon themselves to be offended by my self regarding actions. What sad'o's.

Instead of pandering to reactionary and childish responses to situations like this, I prefer to live in the real world. If that means that the girl's got to get a bit upset that she doesn't live in a fantasy world where everything goes her way, so be it. She should learn about reality rather than trying to force reality to gel with what she wants it to be.

Also willheilm, you speak so much of overcoming our instincts and emotions, personally, I don't think you can be happy if you're fighting a constant battle against yourself. I think that without accepting and enjoying what you are, you essentially aren't being true to yourself. That's where I place my priorities, if that's not the case for you then whatever.

[Guest]

She's been stunted by religion.

or perhaps the misinterpratation thereof.

She's been a bit hurt by porn.

your words, not hers, keep in mind. since you're a fan of porn you will downplay the damage it has done. i would do the opposite - if i needed to. porn seems to leave in its wake enough destruction & pain to indict itself just fine without my sensationalizing the issue.

I think masculinity is lost in our world

i couldn't agree more. because society's flawed perspective of masculinity seems to rule.

Also willheilm, you speak so much of overcoming our instincts and emotions

only when instincts & emotions lead us in the wrong direction. don't throw the baby out with the bath water. the idea is that YOU lead your emotions & instincts, rather than having them lead you. celebrate what should be celebrated. defeat what is destructive. strengthen what's weak & weaken what's too strong. no different than what you would do in your garden, in the gym, when cooking a meal.

it's not rocket science. nor is it self loathing or monastic masochism.

it's really just common sense. but it is antithetical to a secular humanistic veneration of the self, i'll admit.

you do yourself NO favors when you quit holding yourself accountable & give in to your every whim & urge. you show your love for your children when you maintain boundaries that protect them - do the same for yourself.

Instead of pandering to reactionary and childish responses to situations like this, I prefer to live in the real world.

or, rather, the world that affords the least resistance to what you want. you seem to conclude often that women who desire a porn-free relationship are living in a fantasy world & that they should change.

i often wonder why it's not you, and others like you, who live in a fantasy world in which women don't care about porn (this seems to be the unrealistic proposal, not the opposite). and why it is that you shouldn't change.

whether or not your world is real is fruitless discussion. this girl's disgust with her boyfriend's use of porn is equally "real" as your celebration of your own use of it. you both live in "real" worlds.

the question comes down to porn, not your reality. is porn OK or not? is it healthy? does it help relationships? does it improve a man's character? is it good for the people who make it? does it benefit the children who stumble into it? does it reinforce good attitudes toward sexuality & relationships?

or not? what if you invert those questions? is it unhealthy? hurt relationships? tear down a man's character? hurt the people who make it? hurt the kids who find it? reinforce negative sexual attitudes?

is it like smoking? everyone knows it causes cancer & does nothing positive, but we just do it anyway? if so, would you have this reaction if the girl wanted her boyfriend, whom she loves, to quit smoking? would you call upon biology & "real worlds" & accepting you we are?

yours or mine or anyone else's "worlds" really don't have much bearing. you want what you want & so do i.

porn's merit or lack thereof exists regardless of what you and i want. and if it is weighed in the balance & comes up lacking - the only intelligent response is to acknowledge it for what it is. defending it just makes us look silly.

people who smoke despite the obvious do so with self-depreciating humor. "i know i'm killing myself but hand me a smoke." "you gotta die somehow..."

people who use porn despite the obvious try to defend it has a good thing. and they just look silly.

[Fallen1]

Also, having 23 babies with other men is cheating, and is a FAR CRY from watching videos of naked women.

If that female is married or in a committed relationship, yes it is cheating.

And you are correct it is an example that is to the extreme when compared to just videos. I was merely using it to show that both sexes are "programmed" a certain way.