[jns]

We talked last night about everything and she told me that when we first met that she wasn't a sexual person. Obviously I must have missed That particular conversation as I wouldn't be here now, needless to say- Is that why she led me into her bedroom the first night I was here, after I offered and almost insisted to sleep downstairs on the couch? Is that why she kissed me and went down on me that night? Is that why she never complained about sex until our son was born? Did she fake it until our son was born so I would feel obligated to stay? Too many questions and no answers. So... Who's crying now over this? Are all women willing to go to these extremes to get and keep a man? I get so many mixed signals- I don't know which ones to believe anymore. After our talk, I laid on my side away from her and cried silently. We woke up this morning and she acted like the talk never took place and started to hug and kiss me, I just turned away from her and walked off into the living room. They left to go to her sister's home for Easter with her family and I stayed at home due to my IBS. Any excuse to avoid her sister. We never did get along anyway. My son asked if I didn't want hugs from my wife... what do you say to him? Mom and Dad aren't getting along? Great message for him, huh? All of this will have an impact on his future family. There are no really good answers as I can see it. Someone will be miserable no matter what I do or don't do. I'm not only a sexual person, but I'm a passionate person. I put my all into whatever I'm doing. I'm a perfectionist and anal about some things like a high quality welding job, or fixing something that wasn't installed right the first time.
This sucks to be in love with a person who has no sexual feelings for you, but loves you. How do I cope with that when my sex drive is so high and her's is nonexistant? I'm asking a lot of questions that I know the answer to, but hate to know the answer to. Maybe I need a good psychologist, but they only ask you how it makes you feel and charge you out the tail for that one stupid question, How does it make me feel....... Like Crud Doc! No I don't need that kind of help, I need her to understand me. Not much give back on this and I'm only into it a week. No, I'm not pushing things and she brought up the sex subject. I only responded to her questions and comments. I'm not even in the mood to discuss sex or making love or anything else sexual with her. The lines of communication are shut down and the affection can stop as far as I'm concerned. I'm hurt, rejected, pushed away and no matter what I say or do makes any difference to her, she's not a sexual person. I'm wondering if she can feel my pain at all, I wonder if she even really cares that I'm in this much pain. I'm wondering if any female would even want the kind of man I am, I just don't know. I think a lot about this; when I'm old and my last breath comes and goes, will she know how much I truly loved her? I really doubt it. How's that for ripping a persons heart out and throwing it in the ditch?

Where to go from here, well, I'll stick it out until the miserable becomes too much to bear and I'll move on I guess.

Mark, it is unlikely she was lying to you with her actions when you first met. She felt sexually empowered when she was around you. Her hormones drove that sexuality like hormones drive PMS. More the question is how was she when she wasn't with you, before she knew you and wasn't in relationships? This is a restatement of the Coolidge Effect. Since the relationship is established now, those feelings are now not driving a hormone surge and a hormone surge is not driving those feelings. Probably the wish for a child drove her hormone balance to a higher libido. Once that desire was filled, there was nothing to support her high libido, so it fell to a normal state which you had never seen before, but was not out of her comfort range since she had seen it before. She had no idea this would happen.

You want what you had, she has what she had, so you are unhappy and she is OK so she doesn't understand. This is where an open relationship or an additional agreed upon relationship could be useful and fulfilling. However, social conditioning usually makes the satisfied partner unwilling to cede some territory to allow it.

[jns]

What I would give for a 24 hour period of total and complete immersion in love making and closeness with a woman who really enjoyed being the center of my universe and the center of my total and complete attention. I'd give anything to find a love so pure and true. No, you Ladies aren't the only ones who need this kind of gentle love. A few of us guys would give our full and total attention to a female who really wanted it.
Where were all you Ladies when I was looking for the same thing you were looking for? We could have made each others dreams, wants, needs and desires a reality.

Doing this would just drive your libido higher, finally leading to instability in your marriage and family. To have that not happen, a framework for this would have to be set in place prior and you would have to be willing to stay within the new agreed upon boundaries. Then you would have to stay within them. Some times a de facto situation of don't ask don't tell does occur.

[Guest]

I'll just be better off keeping my mouth shut, agreeing with her, keep working around here and taking care of it myself. When it gets too bad, well the dog always chases the cat- too bad, so sad, Love Dad. That's just the way it's going to be. Oh well, could have been different. I'm starting to get a hard heart about it all. No more fighting over something that will just never be there.

[WildChild]

Arrrggghhh.
Did't you say you gotten some kisses like you had always dreamed of?
Rome wasn't built in a day. You have reported progress, actually pretty good progress.
OK. so you've made some changes and got some change in response but then she didn't instantly turn into a nympho. That is no reason to throw in the towel.
What do you want?
We know what you want right now.
What do you want in a month?
3 months?
6 months?
Realistically?
Are you willing to work for it? Work on it?
If you walk out the door tomorrow you aren't very likely to get sex. You are dealing with health issues, you aren't currently employed due to your health issues, you aren't getting disability yet.

Would you be this frustrated dealing with all this if you were single?
Or is a good part of the frustration a feeling that since you are married sex should be a given and not an issue?

Right now you need to focus on the things you Can do to create a positive change. Look into the information Oxy suggested on Yeast. Re-read CWs suggestions based on her own experience. Work on getting the IBS under control. Start doing some stretches that will help with your back pain. The man in my life injured his back doing construction and finds many stretching exercises do provide some at least temporary relief.
Keep working on your relationship. You are seeing results. Not as fast as you want but good results.
Work on the things you can right now. Really focus on them. No matter what happens in the future, it will serve you to improve your health and state of mind.
Learn to meditate. I like Davich's Best Guide to Meditation.
FOCUS ON THE POSITIVE

[oxy-moron]

Arrrggghhh is right.
Mark you already had extra kisses and hugs- that is stage one working.
But you think that you should be getting instant results.
You need to have more patience- If she wants a make up cuddle give it to her- Every bit of non sexual physical contact - no matter what the motive -will be effective. Pats on the back- strokes -cuddles- compliments- reminiscing a family vacation over a meal-it all adds up.
What you are waiting for is her mind to come around to sex. This will happen once your touch has lifted her overall oxytocin levels high enough,

[Guest]

Last night she said I was doing all of this just to get laid... Great, now back to square one! I told her that I was doing it to give her time to do the things she likes to do. She said Saturday I was too affectionate and she needed her space. Okay, I get that and I am giving her space and she hates that too! Does anyone have a pair of tweezers that I can use to pull my anal hair out one by one very slowly? Good Grief...
I know, everyone is getting impatient with me. (Cuss word inserted here, F bomb), I'm getting to the point I need some time away from her. I want time with her, but I need time away to let her do her own thing, while I go out and put more meat in the freezer. I'm thinking the farm, 45 minutes away and a tent to sleep in for a couple of weeks.

[pretzel]

Last night she said I was doing all of this just to get laid... Great, now back to square one! I told her that I was doing it to give her time to do the things she likes to do. She said Saturday I was too affectionate and she needed her space. Okay, I get that and I am giving her space and she hates that too! Does anyone have a pair of tweezers that I can use to pull my anal hair out one by one very slowly? Good Grief...
I know, everyone is getting impatient with me. (Cuss word inserted here, F bomb), I'm getting to the point I need some time away from her. I want time with her, but I need time away to let her do her own thing, while I go out and put more meat in the freezer. I'm thinking the farm, 45 minutes away and a tent to sleep in for a couple of weeks.

In a sense, she's right. You do want to get laid, but that's not the whole story for you, but as far as she's concerned, that is the whole story for her. It does seem maybe she has a different opinion between the meaning of sex and intimacy than you do. Maybe it is a tool that she used to reach her goals, maybe it isn't.

For whatever it's worth I remember asking at one time about her well being both hormonally and emotionally. I think I remember you saying that physically there is no indication of hormonal changes but I don't remember a discussion (other than the why can't we reconnect). I'm not sure but it does seem that there are conflicts within her concerning her past life and into the present. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but the issue of her having a long term relationship with another women exclusively then having a switch go on and then to enter into another long term marriage with you may still be an issue that is unresolved.

I most certainly know what you're going through, as do many others. I know my relationship is akin to the "starving dog" who gets teased with food everynite, but has it taken away. Everynite when the food is put down, you want to eat it all as fast as you can because you don't know what tomorrow will bring. Then no sooner has it been put down, it's taken back up and your left staring and wondering what it is that you did. That is really the hardest part of a relationship where sex drives become so mismatched that you literally lose control over your own emotions and desperation sets in. Alot of us could write the book on that.

As hard as it is, and I know you'll do this, and that is to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself at what point do you stop.

I still think from reading the thread, you're doing everything you can and then some. But as was suggested earlier, it didn't get this way overnite, nor will it change overnite. Best we can do is what we feel is right for who we are and the type of person we want to be.

[WildChild]

Remember, I said that you sabotoged yourself by talking about sex and what you wanted sexually - wanting to pleasure her or not, it was what you wanted sexually? You were making progress.
I also later said that it might not have been such bad thing to bring to her attention. The big error was not in talking about this, it was in rejecting her affection because you were sulking over not getting the response you wanted. Right or wrong that told her that what you want is sex and that is driving all your behavior. She does not understand that you want sex with her because you love her. And in reality that is a partial truth. You are to the point that you would accept sex with virtually any woman if you thought you could get it.

It is a no win deal. Many of us have been there or are there. Unless you are a brute who commits spousal rape, the one with the lower sex interest controls sex in the relationship. This is THE big problem with lifetime monogamy. If people had a contract for x number years that had to be renewed periodically they would probably look at things differently. That would require a greater equity in a relationship, a full discussion and spelling out of who is responsible for what, separate finances, and a separate and fully detailed agreement regarding having children. (if people had to sigh a standard agreement of procreation before they had sex there would be a heck of a lot fewer "accidents"), As it is many couples never discuss vital issues such as finances, children, sex or even who cleans the bathroom or does the laundry. You say, "I do" and all at once find out that the person you are tied to, supposedly for life, doesn't.

She got the message. You are wanting sex. There is nothing wrong with that, there is everything right with it, you are married and that is supposedly one of the advantages of marriage. Except that once people are locked in and it happens with both genders, they often become complaisant.

Please re-read my past post above.

What have you got to lose at this time, under these circumstances, by staying a while longer and working in the relationship and other issues?
Sometimes it is a really good idea to just get out. When there is verbal and/or physical abuse there is never a reason to stay. Lack of sex and intimacy can be considered a form of abuse. It works both ways though. Pushing a person who doesn't want sex to have it could also be considered abuse, at least by them and others like them.

Right now I think you could turn it around. I also think that you have too much time on your hands. You are used to being an active man, working hard, bringing home a paycheck, being strong and able to do a lot. Now you are severely limited in that and tied to home and the bathroom. Work on resolving this health issue!!! No matter what happens, this is your biggest limiting factor right now. If you leave this marriage, you are still tied by these limits.

Please spend some time, get a notebook and do some writing. Explore what this illness has to teach you. What benefits do you get from it? Seriously. Think about it. Things happen for a reason. What is the reason for this? Keeping in mind that you are here to learn and grow and come to live in harmony and balance. What is this saying to you and teaching you? Are you familiar with the Medicine Wheel? With the four directions and their characteristics and lessons? You know that if you are seeing like a mouse, close to the ground, seeing only what is right in front of you, you must marry the eagle, which sees great distances, this can mean some tough growth. That is how you achieve balance and become a whole person? If the circle that represents you has everything loaded in one or two or even three quadrants, you will be out of balance.

Look at this as a time of healing and introspection. If you have to get away for a little while, get out in the woods alone (take your tick spray, it's tick season) then do so, that can be very healing. You won't be getting any sex there either but should be able to clear your mind more and focus on what you REALLY need. Don't go off in a snit. Do this positively if it is what you need. Intension is everything in this kind of healing. Maybe it's time for you to get on the Red Road? Or at least reconnect with your heritage? Check the 500 Nations site, there should be a listing of powwows in your area. Quiet your mind and get focused.

[Guest]

Oh, WC... I could never be abusive toward a woman. It's not in my nature to be that way. I only want her to truly want me, to need me. Yet she still pushes me away. It's okay, she is only doing what she needs to do for herself. I need to give her the space to be herself and stop talking about all of it. Before you posted, I was about to post this and I got booted off again. So I logged back in and here I am once more;


First off, her parents never told her or her siblings that they were loved. It was just expected that they knew. Second, her front female parts were referred to as her, "front butt". That seemed very strange to me when I heard her refer to our son's parts as his front butt. I immediately said, "No, it's his penis and testicles." I think she associated her vagina with something dirty or unclean. So, with that in mind, she thinks my mouth doesn't belong anywhere near there or it brings up memories of her gf down there. Messed up, no if's and's or but's- This whole thing is just almost too much for me and hind sight is 20/20. There was no displays of affection in her family as she was growing up. She told me that I was the only man who asked for her hand in marriage, I did the unthinkable in today's society- I asked her parents for their blessing, I thought they were going to fall over. I was the first future son-in-law to ask for their blessing. I'm always on top of my manners with any woman around, but I make it a point to really be old school around her parents, they are in their in their 80's and remember when a man took his hat off in the home and had polite manners. It was a very important thing in their courtship days as I think it is just as important in today's courtship, dating or whatever it's called nowadays. I'm teaching my son to never pull in some girl's driveway and honk the horn. That's very disrespectful to her and her parents. Be a Gentleman and go up to the door, talk with her Dad and make sure he knows his daughter is in the presense of a gentleman and will respect his daughter.


Yes Pretzel, I do feel like the starving dog. You better get all the water you can from the well before it dries up. It's pretty arid in these parts and only get a couple of inches of rain a year. Bad thing is that the well is starting to get contaminated with thoughts of looking elsewhere for water. Some wells are overflowing springs it seems and the water looks to be very sweet and inviting. Now I'm not one to just test the waters, I like to dive right in since I know it will eventually dry up once more and I have to find another. That's why I'm against marriage for myself if this one doesn't work out. I'll never be in the corner stuck with nowhere to go, not happening again. I'll never be tied to only one again. I might choose to only be with one, but if things go bad- well, there isn't a shortage of lonely women who might just like this old cowboy.

Her doctor won't put her on hormones, he is thinking she will get breast cancer since it runs in her family. I only want what's best for her and her health. My son needs her around for a long time. I'd like for all of this to get resolved in such a way that allows us to stay together as a family. It's just a tough row to hoe. This one has many stubborn weeds that's ruining the crop.
Strange analogies? Maybe, but sometimes it's the only way I can put things. This is the first time in my life I have run up against a wall this tough emotionally. In the past, I either avoided them or somehow found a way around them. This one is just staring me in the face and won't budge. I can either take it down piece by piece and put it back up behind me or just bust through it and leave it behind me. I tend to bust through things and just leave the mess laying there to stink up the whole site. It usually makes it easier for me emotionally to just not deal with it. I tend to run from things or avoid them, defense mechanism to save what's left of my heart. Not much can hurt it anymore. My teats have been through the wringer of life, I used to scream in agony. Now I just want to stand there silent, showing no pain, not giving in or showing any emotion and let everyone take their turn cranking the handle. Just be numb to it all-
Sound cold? I've been pushed away so much that if I am drawn near, I am starting to freak out about it. I'd just as soon feel the distance where nothing hurts and no one can inflict pain.

[pretzel]

Hey Mark,

Couple of things,

First off, you are to be commended with the way you're raising your son. He would be the type of young man I'd love for my own daughter to want to be with.

Secondly, your description of your wife's upbringing raises a few flags. Would the term "MidWest Christian Evangelical" be a reflective description of your wife's family?

Finally, does your wife's doctor know that there are alternative treatments to hormone imbalances beside hormone replacement therapy which generally means having the woman go back on birth control and having to deal with all the side effects and risks associated with that method?