[amy40]

Macon one has to have a certain number of posts to receive Pms, don't know how many

[macon]

You’re right, atskitty, that I’ve work yet to do on this one. It’s worth fighting for, well, not fighting—there’s no one to fight—worth showing spine, tenacity. I can do that; thank you for the encouragement.

I want to offer something in reference to your pain at the loss of your marriage, because failed marriages, mental illness, and pain are things I have a lot of experience with.

The combination of your advice to me and your description of your pain from a marriage you struggled so hard to save make it sound like at least part of your pain is from struggling in vain. You’re clearly a brave, strong woman. What you did was above and beyond and a reflects very well on you.

Not every marriage can be saved, no matter how hard one partner tries. Some people you just have to leave where jesus flung them. They’re unreachable. I was one: I’m bipolar II and didn’t start on medication till I was around fifty.

You’re only human. You did the most anyone could. You can take pride in your devotion to your marriage and to a man who, it appears, treated you badly. Good men are out there, men who want a woman with your strength and who would stand by you as you learn to be happy again.

It may be hard to trust again. Choosing the right man will be essential; give your love only to a man who makes you glow. A friend of mine, a little older than I, crashed out of a marriage to a flaming narcissist. Her head was so turned around she thought she’d never be able to figure out how to love again. She found a man who saw in her the woman he wanted and had the strength and patience to stand by her as she found her way through to love again. He was a beacon for her; she trusted his love and steadfastness and, last I heard, was extremely happy in that relationship.

You can only heal your heart so much on your own. You have to let go and risk, and love does the rest. Unfortunately, risk is, well, risk. You might trust the wrong guy and that would really suck. Maybe you’ve heard of Regina Spektor, a startlingly wise young singer-songwriter. When she was in her late twenties she wrote a song called “Radio” with a verse that still makes me tear up sometimes, it’s so true:

This is how it works:
You peer inside yourself,
You take the things you like
And try to love the things you took.
And then you take that love you made
And stick it into some,
Someone else's heart
Pumping someone else's blood.
You’re walking arm in arm,
You hope it don't get harmed,
But even if it does
You just do it all again.

It may seem like well she’s young and young people do that. Partly they do it because they’re young, but partly they’re young because they do it.

Time may come when you feel you might maybe want to give it a try. When you do, risk as much as you can bear to. If you fall, you will survive; you know that because look what you’ve survived already. But probably you’ll choose well: one of the benefits of being, you know, old is that we’ve made so many mistakes we see a lot of them coming and cross the road.

Love is all there is, really. Reach for it and it can be yours.

[macon]

Hi Amy. I'm clueless. I tried to figure out how to message you but got nothing. I will check the forum at 10:30 EST if you want to try again. Macon

[macon]

Hi Stillness,

I’ve thought a lot about what you wrote. You’ve encouraged me quite a bit, and your most recent post is helpful, too, but also a little unsettling.

Though raised catholic, I left that behind long ago. I’m on my third marriage and have no concept of sacred vows. Maybe more important is the fact that my second marriage was to a catholic woman who had me on board with the idea that the couple comes before the children. Problem was, they weren’t her children. That went badly. My children suffered from my poor judgment. (Their mother had left me when they were small and then a few years later died.)

I suppose I could have stayed with my second wife, but I was miserable. She had masterfully presented herself as someone she really wasn’t and couldn’t keep up. It wasn’t her fault; she applied the tools given her to land a husband. The people we turned out to be didn’t really like each other very much, and, for various reasons, including her conflicts with my sons, I was really mad at her. So I ended that. It was ugly; I made a bad job of it. She deserved better. In addition to being in a manic period, I was ignorant, misguided, and selfish. I learned, got medicated for my bipolar disorder, and do better now.

The children I live with are my wife’s. Her responsibility to them precedes me. I don’t contest that. I think responding to my love would actually give her more of herself, not take away, but that’s her decision. In any event, she and I agree: her children come first.

I live in a world where life is short and nothing follows. I have to balance my conscience with my wishes for myself. If I go too far against my conscience, I drag myself down; if I give myself away, I’ve lost myself.

So your encouragement as a fellow man who’s faced relationship challenges helps me. But I can’t apply the same tools. I’ve got to find strength elsewhere. I think the most helpful thing in your post is that in your conversations you laid out your darker feelings and fears. I waffle about that. I have depths I’ve come to terms with but am not proud of. I’m not sure what good there can be in dredging that up, though I know firsthand the result of leaving important things unspoken. Seems laying it out worked for you. That’s something for me to think about.

Thank you again for your thoughtful consideration of my messy problems. I read everything you write many times and ponder it. Shared wisdom often helps in ways we might not have expected.

Macon

[amy40]

Macon


from your first post "we enjoy each other's company, laugh a lot, go on dates" you tell each other love you
it seems your marriage does have a lot going for it, probably even more than a lot of marriages
so my guess is you two would probably want to work together for a solution

[Stillness]

If I go too far against my I have depths Ive come to terms with but am not proud of. Im not sure what good there can be in dredging that up, though I know firsthand the result of leaving important things unspoken. Seems laying it out worked for you.

Not always so well.

For example, this one time we were hanging out with one of our single, pretty friends that was talking about her desire to get married, but not wanting to settle. I mentioned to my wife later that it would not be good for her and I to be alone together because she's horny. That aspect of the discussion had gone over her head. She asked me if I was attracted to her. I said I was. She went insane with jealousy!

This was around the time we had really started discussing things in depth and struggling with our differences. The filter was off and we were trying to be really open with the flow of information and not respond too emotionally to what was said. But, she was under the impression that she was the only woman I was attracted to. This new information was too much, especially when I told her that things could have been that way between us if we had a good sexual relationship.

All of a sudden, we were having sex every day. That sounds good, in theory. But this was angry and jealous stuff. She wasn't my lady. She was a desperate woman trying to keep her man's eyes off of other women. It wasn't lovemaking. It wasn't us. I didn't like it. That's when I learned firsthand that all sex is not good sex and that some stuff is better left unsaid.

I guess when "dredging" you get good and bad, though. I still try to be open, but I'm more careful.

[atskitty2]

Leave em where Jesus flung em....ha! I will use that one!
I also like the statement about doing it because they're young, and young because they do it.

Thanks for the encouragement and kindness.

[Ashlee T.]

I love this thread.

And yes, you have to have established yourself here for a while before you can begin pm'ing. That security feature protects our members from creepers or spammers joining purely to harass our members privately. :-D

[macon]

I talked with my wife about my feelings and needs. It was a good talk; I got almost none of what I wanted. I told her I will leave if I can't get at least some of the intimacy and sex I want. She seemed either to have expected that or not to care all that much about it except for her then being alone.

She puts a lot of weight on the problems I had and the pain that caused her before I was diagnosed and medicated for bipolar II. She says her feelings changed. No gain.

She discovered I was looking at porn years ago and she places a lot of weight on that. She can't get over it. She's very liberal, but she's also big on a version of feminist thinking that criminalizes things men do and think just because they're men. We have some differing opinions on this, but she doesn't seem hold my opinions against me; just the nature and extent of my desire. This issue is a problem I really hadn't recognized. No gain.

She feels that relationships don't need much physical intimacy after the partners get past the infatuation at the beginning. For her, all the sex and intimacy early on is about getting the relationship started, solid, and stable. I would like to have known that at the beginning. I told her I see relationships differently: intimacy and sex are part of what __keeps__ a relationship stable and solid. No gain.

She has the stresses I knew about and figured out with help from people in this forum. She puts a tremendous amount of weight on my conflicts with her children, despite recognizing her children are the source of the conflicts. So even though it's her daughter's hostility toward me and her son's outrageous behavior that cause me to get angry with them now and then (a few times a week, incidents lasting a few seconds), and though she feels few people, including herself, could do as well as I do in this situation, it's still me or them to her. No gain.

Her weight disgusts her. She can't stand to see herself in the mirror. She more or less doesn't--can't--believe me when I say I'm physically attracted to her in any significant way. No gain.

She blames me for not having sex. I don't approach her or even ask. When I pointed out that her consistently negative responses and criticism of the way I ask her are why I quit, her response was I should change the way I ask and/or approach her when she's not tired or busy. But she busies herself all the time and needs to sit and read before bed, then she goes to bed very late. Times when she's not busy or tired occur essentially never. No gain.

Since this talk, she has accepted and responded more to my affection and offered a small amount herself. Small, as yet indeterminate gain here.

She sees counseling as a waste of time.

Given all this, I didn't pursue birth control or menopause as possible causes of her uninterest in sex and intimacy.

The only times she showed any emotion were when she talked about how her children are slipping away from her, and when she said how doesn't want to face the future after them alone. Her lack of emotion all by itself was a let down for me. It felt like our relationship doesn't matter all that much to her, that I don't matter all that much.

This is my rock to push up the hill; she's not going to help. I'll see how far I can push it and how much work that is, and how hard I have to work to keep it from falling back, and decide whether it's worth it. However, she's very loyal and kind. She will stay with me as I get older. That's not nothing.

Thank you again for all your help. I really had a lot to sort out, and I was able to have a civil, meaningful talk with her that rarely veered into areas of no value. Turns out it didn't help much, but that was my gut all along. The future looks about the same as it did before.

[Stillness]

That's great stuff!

When we were struggling and having conversations, sometimes I'd feel hopeless afterward and at best like there was no progress made - just a lot of useless talk. But getting things out in the open helps to uncover and resolve issues. Sometimes it takes a while to process and the improvements might just be baby steps. Patience is the key if it works.

My wife use to try to talk about what I wasn't or was doing, but I felt that that was just her trying to deflect her feelings of inadequacy off onto me. If you've read other threads, you'll find that's a common theme when the low-libido mate is confronted. I pretty much ignored it. It wasn't like I stunk or was unfaithful or inattentive. You're not about to deprive me and make me feel guilty because I didn't do the dishes or because there's pressure when I'm not even getting it in once a week. I listened when she spoke, though. It was hard (haha), but I didn't accuse, but I also didn't let her throw me off with that nonsense.

I wonder if your wife knows how little you have sex? With mine, there was some denial. I wasn't keeping track, but it was so little that I could guess pretty accurately. She didn't believe it. To my surprise, she had been keeping track of our sexual encounters for years, but never bothered to count. Seeing the validity of my complaints in her own records was huge for us. There was no denying the black and white record in her own hand.

The thing that most concerns me about what you did is the ultimatum - sex or I'm gone. One of the things that encourages closeness in someone is knowing that they'll be there for you when stuff gets tight. They're not just going to cut and run. That makes for feelings of security, trust, and emotional intimacy. Sexual intimacy comes more naturally in that kind of environment.

I feel like what you got accomplished is very good, though. Like we said, sometimes it hurts a bit when you're trying to fix what's broken. That's part of the process.