[amy40]

The husband did not try to stop her. He didn't apologize for her behavior.

The wife is not his child. The wife would have needed to be the one to apologize, not him.

[DreamP346]

*amy40 I think by giving examples, I am confusing the matter. The example was a single interact from many between this couple and us. Other family members experienced similar interactions. Let's just forget about all the examples completely. Discussing the individual interactions isn't getting to the point I would like to discuss. What I am discussing is when one spouse is very toxic and creates a wedge between the other spouse and his family/friends. This toxic spouse leads to the alienation of the other spouse's family and friends. I go back to my original question, Would you have tried to maintain relationships that your spouse was jeopardizing? what is more important, keeping your spouse happy, or being able to have relationships beyond your spouse?

The wife is not his child. The wife would have needed to be the one to apologize, not him.

If this was me, I would have apologized or at least said something. As a married couple, in many ways we are a single unit. When one says something, it represents the family. If my husband did something rude, crazy or embarrassing, I would apologize because I would want to make it clear that his actions do not represent my feelings.

[amy40]

Dream
after thinking about this.....
i'm thinking you are pretty angry that these women interfered with your friendship with the spouse

[Stillness]

My first thought is that I would not marry someone like this. That's why I was asking what happened before. Why would you pick someone like this and is it all them? Maybe the husbands contributed to or encouraged their behavior in some way.

I would be more tolerant and sympathetic if they had some kind of physiological incident that caused behavioral change. I'm hoping that my friends and family would be too. If they just decided to be selfish and stupid, I'd be less tolerant.

My wife has the right to demand my time and loyalty, but not to the exclusion of everyone else. I'd have to find some kind of balance. I would stand by them to a point. But wrong is wrong. I'll never side with that.

[atskitty2]

Well, it does matter, to an extent, what the fuss is about. I would stand by my man to a point, but I also wouldn't call him out publicly. Or, I hope I wouldn't. As you say, we should be a cohesive unit. Publicly going against him isn't reinforcing that bond, and could be disrespectful. But again, depends on the subject matter.

And also, what do you mean by "stand by" someone? Do you really expect a spouse to leave another because y'all had a disagreement with them, and you believe that you're on the right side?

I am also not sure what you mean by toxic? I don't think that woman who slept til noon on Vaca was necessarily showing toxic behavior. Poor planning, maybe selfishness, but toxic? Is she a night shifter?
I sleep til noon too. I don't get to bed until usually 4-5 am. I'm also very protective of my sleep. Now, I just wouldn't go on Vaca with others unless I explained my unusual habits and prepared to accommodate myself without interfering with other's vaca, but maybe this person just didn't realize how small the house was, or even that other people don't sleep in on Vaca. I vacationed with my nephew last year. He knows my schedule, he's fine with it, all was well. Simple communication and foresight was all it took. This woman's lack thereof, doesn't alone, make her toxic.
I'm assuming that there are other reason why you thought this spouse should have gone against her wishes?

I have a nephew that I have not spoken to in years. He is like a baby brother, I helped my mom raise him while I was still at home. We were close until he married this girl, that I also once got along just fine with. His wife decided that she doesn't like our family so they cut us off. He's 30 yrs old now. I called them once to talk about it. She would barely let him talk to me, and she gave really no legit reason for never coming around. This is a case that I feel the right thing is for him to leave her at home and go visit his parents and grandparents. My parents hardly know their great grandkids because she doesn't like our family. Never mind me, but I think he should care to visit his own parents and his grandparents who raised him. That is the line.
More petty arguments between friends or family, over this or that, yeah I guess I can understand that they would keep peace at home.

[DreamP346]

OK. Let's please not dwell on the examples. As I said, they were single incidences to give you an idea. It wasn't about sleeping in. It wasn't a single incident. It wasn't just about us. It wasn't about not being social These women were toxic and alienated their husbands from their family AND friends. This wasn't just about family, immediate or extended. Everybody I talked with agreed that these women were not nice. They caused rifts and made everybody around them feel uncomfortable. Their husband's response was to stand by their wives and either completely cut ties or significantly limit their relationship with family and friends. They expected others to cater to their wives desires while it looked like these wives were not asked the same.

I don't know if these wives were like that before they got married.

BTW, all 3 wives I'm talking about are completely unrelated from different families. I've sure there are similar cases with husbands too.

[amy40]

Dream
Re the vacation
Am surprised that 10 other people would agree to ALL those rules. Have to say that is ridiculous, considering it was not even her place. Could understand one thing, like the sleeping in part and you all trying to be quiet in morn but so many rules, it's excessive. It makes it seem like she is a child.

Dream....that is actually funny that someone would say you were being controlled. That could roll off your shoulders because even I can tell from your posts that you are a more dominant personality.



Totally understand sleeping in, and when we are at a hotel, I'm always shushing kid, and saying people sleep in. Sometimes on a vacation, that's the only time a person might be able to sleep in, so it seems reasonable for people that are up to eat breakfast and then maybe head out for a while while the sleep in people get shut eye.

[atskitty2]

Dream, I think the examples are key...if you're going to say someone is toxic, and give these as examples of toxic, then yeah I am going to wonder about what you describe as toxic. I never thought you're meaning these are isolated incidents with these women. Could be y'all are just a bit too close, too enmeshed in each other's business for it to be comfortable any longer. Maybe the boundaries are crossed.

I understand you're trying to speak in general, but if these are things that you deem to be toxic, then your view may be the unrealistic one in these scenarios. I don't know that, I'm suggesting that maybe everyone in your group is piling on because there's one who's more picky than the others. Not toxic necessarily, but not always pleasant to be around either.

I guess you want us to evaluate the situation without the scenario you give, but that's kinda the point. In my opinion these aren't deal breakers, they're annoyances.
You gave us examples, then asked us to disregard them. I just happen to think they sound rather minor, maybe inconsiderate behavior, toxic people.

based on the info you give, no I absolutely wouldn't leave a partner for this and I would be on the side of my partner for these types of issues. Like I said tho, different planning and communication could likely prevent these types of problems.

[DreamP346]

So the examples have been given and it seems like I can't take them back. So I'll try to give more context.

In the situation with the fight: This woman accused one family member of trying to steal her son's inheritance. Then she got into a fight with another family member. She accused my husband of something that never happened and picked a fight with him. Then she tried to convince me I was having a fight with another family member (I wasn't). Then she tried to spread rumors that my husband was controlling me (anybody how knows me, knows that I am a very dominant person. In public, I am the one who is very controlling). She was constantly in fights with her MIL. Her husband's friends stopped hanging out with him because they never knew what new crazy thing she would do. That is how I define toxic.

Regarding the wife who slept in: Me and the rest of the 10 people in the shared vacation house had to follow a long list of rules. Can't make noise before 12, can't come to the front of the house before she puts her make up on, can't come into her kitchen (there were several kitchens in the vacation house), she didn't want to come out with us, but she couldn't be left alone for more than a few hours, we had to eat when she was hungry, whether we wanted to or not, we had to follow her cultural traditions, although she didn't follow any of ours. And the list goes on. this was not her house, it was a shared vacation house. By the end of the vacation, everybody (family and friends from different cultures) were all feeling very uneasy and happy to be out of the house.

[atskitty2]

In that first scenario above, I understand you thinking that's a woman who's drama is spreading damage throughout the family. She is toxic. Do I think her husband should leave her over it, no. Would I hope he was attempting to talk some reasoning into her, behind closed doors, absolutely.

The second one, I still think that is possibly a situation that could be avoided completely. I have friends/family that I would never dream of vacationing with, for similar reasons. Way too rigid and selfish for my lifestyle. I would not consider them toxic tho and their romantic relationship works well for them.

Hard to tell from the outside, what meaningful and satisfying relationship may look like for someone else.