[WantingToBeWanted]

It took seven years to create this problem. It will not disappear overnight.
For seven years, you didn't apologize for being harsh on her for having sex. How many partners are you talking about here? 10? 20? 100? And who's to say that she didn't choose carefully? Or take it seriously? It may have been a VERY serious choice for her to experiment with sex. Did you ask her? Just because she didn't volunteer the information doesn't mean anything - if someone vilifies me for my sex life, I'm not about to share more about it.
For seven years, you never asked for more than what you had. You never indicated there was a problem. And for much of that time period, I'll assume you DIDN'T have a problem.
Have you had a sit-down talk about this? Have you said everything that is in your thread? Do you often talk to each other about deep subjects?
You might consider showing her this thread. Don't assume she doesn't want passion just because she's not giving it. It seems plausible that she's "punishing" you for your initial judgment and years of vanilla sex by withholding passion from you.
Don't throw away your loving wife because she's not turning into a temptress overnight. Maybe she needs to see a counselor to. Consider all the possibilities before you make a decision.

She had 10 intercourse partners, and others that were non intercourse. I had one intercourse partner, and a few more non intercourse partners. She was 22, I was 26 when we met.

She obtained all those partners in the span of 4 years. Do you really think she was carefully considering each of those encounters? I had many more opportunities during my 26 years, and I chose very carefully before engaging in any sort of sexuality with a girl. It wasn't something I just threw at anyone who was interested. Trust me, my days of judging her are over, but I do think it's worth nothing that even before we met we seemed to treat sex very differently from one another. I think that when you examine the various aspects of our current problems, it's worth noting those things. No? I think sex simply meant more to me than it did her, and it seems that I'm still seeing that today. Before I ever spoke a word to her, she was willing to get it on a lot more easily than I was.

Yes, as I went through a re-awakening if you will, last year, I began to realize how much more open we should be together. That started with me bringing up her sexual past for the first time in 7 years, and apologizing for how judgemental I was with her. She accepted the apology, but that was the end of that. She's didn't say a word about how much it bothered her, or anything. She just said "It's ok".

You've asked for help and I'm going to be blunt because tiptoeing around won't really help. I hope you take this as honesty or "tough love.

You largely created this. You took a sexual woman, laid a guilt trip on her, made her "wrong", and made her past pleasure into something "dirty". For what ever reason, probably based in her youth (she was what 22?) and childhood exposure to belief systems that uphold this kind of thinking, instead of telling you where to get off, she accepted your judgement of her. She shut her sexual self down and became a "good" woman. She went without sex until marriage, she dutifully "takes care of you", makes dinner, keeps a clean house. She's playing her part, fullfilling the role assigned her.

You told her bluntly that pleasuring her with oral sex was "unappealing". So, you never asked for it, but you would enjoy it? Why would she enjoy it? What possible motivation could she ever have in initiating it? Why would getting her nose and tongue into your privates be any more appealing to her than you getting your nose and tongue into hers is to you? You essentially told her "bluntly" that her most intimate self was "unappealing". You also made the sexual experience she had, which is where she would have already learned to do a blow job, completely shocking and displeasing. Why should you now benefit from what you made into a source of guilt and shame?

I fully acknowledge I may have played a part in this, and that is why I'm being so honest in my creating of this thread. But at the same time, I have begun to worry that she is simply not wired the same as me in terms of deep affection, and loving behavior. It's about more than just SEX here. That is what I've tried to make clear. Even away from the bedroom she is hardly what I would call a super affectionate wife.

I hope you can at least acknowledge that I am being very open about this, and I'm truly willing to do anything to have the open, loving, passionate relationship I want. If she expressed a true desire to get oral sex, I'd definitely give it a try. Years ago I would have never considered it. Now I would.

Just to clarify a bit more. I didn't tell her "you will have no sex until we are married". It was just a mutually agreed upon idea, to save that act for marriage, because we both felt we were going to get married early on. She never once during that year before marriage said to me she wished we could have sex. Not to mention, you make it sound like I was somehow having all this wild sex, and she wasn't. It was an agreed upon thing, and we still messed around during that year regularly.

You may not get this, but you made her a HO. You had sexual experience too (not that it would be any different if you had had none). The fact that you had less, didn't make you any cleaner or better, anymore than her experience made her unclean or worse than you. But you made her sexuality wrong. Not bringing it up again hasn't made it OK, hasn't healed what you did to her emotionally. Now you are resenting her lack of sexual initiation and responsiveness. You want your own sexuallity? After you crushed hers? Appologising isn't enough. Her healing depends on how deeply in herself she accepted this judgement. You played upon religious and cultural messages that she already had ingrained, you hit the switch and turned her off. You can't just turn her back on. The wires may be fused now.

Now you think you may have married a woman who doesn't want the passion and sex you do. It sounds like you may have had one. You didn't want her as she was, she wasn't acceptable.She made a huge change for you before you married. Now you've changed, she hasn't. You'll never really know what she was sexually and emotionally, because you tried and condemed her without knowing. It's not surprising you feel she responds to you like a father, you treated her as if you had a right to judge, restrict her priviliges (no sex) and then forgave her. You set yourself in a parent-like role.

This is a variation of what I called the virgin Ho, before I heard the term Madonna complex. The idea that the woman is supposed to be this "pure", untouched, innocent creature - until she marries. Then she is supposed to magically turn into a sexual dynamo. It rarely works that way.

I don't know what to tell you about healing this. This isn't something you "fix", it will be a healing process. A lot will depend on whether she is willing to trust that you really love her and will accept her. It may require counseling, a non-religious counselor would probably be best, she doesn't need any more blame or disapproval. You need to accept that at the very least you contributed significantly to this situation. You couldn't have created it entirely unless the groundwork was already there but you have to own your role and quit making her wrong. I wish you both success in resolving this. It will take time, patience, love and trust.

As I said earlier, I never denied her sex. It was a mutual agreement. Never did she request it, or even hint that she would rather not wait til marriage.

I have accepted that I caused a problem, and I behaved poorly in those early days of getting to know her. The biggest question for me now, is simply how much of it is due to my actions, and how do I fix it.



The other thing that has recently begun to hurt me deeply, is the realization that our sexual relationship is so shallow, and knowing that she experienced all these things with other men before she met me, and yet I've never even experienced these things with her and I've been married to her for more than 6 years.


I've recently begun this discussion. I've even said "I worry that my judging comments of the past have affected your behavior today", and she says that is not the case. She insists that she's always been less affectionate than me, but the minute I hear that I of course immediately think "all those guys in college seemed to get plenty of affection", and that hurts. Of course I don't know how emotionally deep those relationships were, but it's still hard to think about.

I've opened the doors of communication, and made it clear I want more passion in our relationship, but so far it seems to be met with a very muted response.

[Hopeless Dork]

CW hit the nail on the head just now-- the guilt trip given at the beginning of the relationship would put her in a position of even if she WANTED to be naughty with you , she'd fear it would remind you of how naughty you thought she was before you.

So she would probably force herself to behave in a manner you thought acceptable, non sexual. Act that way long enough and you just become it.

Also to add, even the most CONFIDENT woman can be insecure about her lady parts, because of jokes and insults you hear on tv, in lunch rooms etc... you fear it being not smelling right, not looking right, not tasting right... its really up to the man that loves you to show you , not only is it right -- its beautiful. And when he does... it unlocks a sexual confidence that the man will reap the benifits of.

Being made to feel her parts are 'unnappealing' even if you just said the act was unnappealing to you, I would definitely take it as my womanhood was unnappealing to you. I'd want to hide it and cover it up with a blanket. I would never risk, even 7 years later, asking you to touch it, to make love to it with more than your penis... for fear of hearing how unnappealing I was ... again.

You say she never made a big deal out of you not doing it... but I don't know why she would. If I was told a guy didn't want to touch my body like that, I would not keep asking for him to do it and keep feeling worse and worse about myself.

Not trying to beat you up here. But I think you are blaming your wife for your lack of passion and yes, she is passionless from what you described -- but you need to take responsability for the role you played in created the bed you now lay in.

Its not unfixable though, you just have to be willing to do the work it takes to make her feel like the woman she should have been allowed to feel all along.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

She's didn't say a word about how much it bothered her, or anything. She just said "It's ok".

What seriously does that tell you?

The other thing that has recently begun to hurt me deeply, is the realization that our sexual relationship is so shallow, and knowing that she experienced all these things with other men before she met me, and yet I've never even experienced these things with her and I've been married to her for more than 6 years.

but the minute I hear that I of course immediately think "all those guys in college

Like my ex-husband, you can not let it go... It's still there, it's not in the past and she knows it.

CW

[WildChild]

She had 10 intercourse partners, and others that were non intercourse. I had one intercourse partner, and a few more non intercourse partners. She was 22, I was 26 when we met.

She obtained all those partners in the span of 4 years. Do you really think she was carefully considering each of those encounters? I had many more opportunities during my 26 years, and I chose very carefully before engaging in any sort of sexuality with a girl. It wasn't something I just threw at anyone who was interested.

She insists that she's always been less affectionate than me, but the minute I hear that I of course immediately think "all those guys in college seemed to get plenty of affection", and that hurts. Of course I don't know how emotionally deep those relationships were, but it's still hard to think about.

You are still judging her.
And she knows it at some level.

[WantingToBeWanted]

You are still judging her.
And she knows it at some level.

Just to be clear, I have NEVER brought that up for 7 years, except when I apologized for my behavior recently. I don't honestly think she still thinks I'm judging her to this day.

To be fair, I only brought those things up when you guys seemed to suggest that we didn't treat sex differently since before we even met. I simply explained that I felt their was a difference in our behaviors regarding sex before we even met.

[WildChild]

You are still thinking it, you don't have to say it. It will show in your attitude and responses even if you don't realize it.

10 partners in 4 years? pffft. I had roomates in college who had a different one every weekend. Nobody's business but theirs.

"all those guys in college seemed to get plenty of affection", and that hurts. .

She obtained all those partners in the span of 4 years. Do you really think she was carefully considering each of those encounters? ...It wasn't something I just threw at anyone who was interested.

Your words. You haven't let go of it at all.

[caterpillar79]

These wise ladies said it all.

Also, the way you treat her, your actions, your whole demeanor then and now would largely affect the dynamics of how she would open up to you. I am also speaking from experience.

There are a lot of signals that you could have done inadvertently. Our subconscious does that, and it acts upon what you believe deep down in your heart of hearts. Even if you keep denying it, it will show.

Just like now. You haven't let go of it at all. Open your eyes.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

If you don't want to listen to us, that being that you pose a question and so far, what 6 ladies have actually stated the same reason?

It's all in the up-bringing on your behalf in the way you viewed it back then.

Let's look at it like this:-

She advised you 10 partners, in 4 years, in your mind you have that.

But, it backfired on her, being honest, because in your mind, yes you let it go, but did you?

So, again, through fear, she has maintained that thought of what happened when she told you and she can not let herself go sexually with you, it's not possible, the fear of you thinking back to that time again, stops her.

Now you've posed a question on this Forum and what has happened? Your thinking back again to that time, whether it's to defend or explain further, it's still "thinking back to that time"... this is what she has / is avoiding.

It's almost as if your thinking, that as she had 10 partners, she has to be sexual, why not with you? Now you want that, and you want her to come out, but she won't and then your mind changes it's thought pattern to maybe she's not sexual at all? But this is what I wan't I've matured.

We can't read her mind, but rest assure, nothing the ladies are saying is false, they're/we're women and we've been through this thought pattern before, many a time, even if we were 17 or 22... we've seen it.

I can say this, you can't assume anything.

Those 10 partners, in 4 years, as I said, could have made her feel they were hers and ditched her after a month, or so... and she would have hurt badly over that.

Have you ever considered that?

Have you considered that you treated her right, you married her, you didn't use her? You didn't have sex, she sustained for that until marriage for you... to feel clean and worthy for you. Why? She didn't do anything wrong, she probably made a few judgemental errors of boys who play the cards just to get what they want... She's human.

This is about, what she sacrificed for you, so sacrifice for her and understand that at 22 alot of mistakes are made as we grow and learn but more importantly, it was her body, her mind, her life before you and you can not judge her, you wouldn't have married her if she wasn't beautiful inside and she is obviously.

This is about you letting that garbage go or else you won't have a marriage to work with let alone sex with this woman.

She is a grown woman, a respectful woman, one whom has been faithful for 7 and a half years..

Learn to love her for her... She gave herself to you in marriage, in non sexuality before marriage, and her life to you... Respect her for that and tell her you love her more than words can say. That you love all she has been to you in your marriage and start holding her more, kissing her on the head and repeating this for some time, and re-gain her trust that she can be herself FINALLY... without fear of a thought of the past coming back to haunt her.

For no reason, ... because what we do before marriage is not a concern to the person that we chose to marry, to be faithful to, to be all to... and that is what she needs to hear, know, feel and believe.


CW

[WantingToBeWanted]

You are still thinking it, you don't have to say it. It will show in your attitude and responses even if you don't realize it.

10 partners in 4 years? pffft. I had roomates in college who had a different one every weekend. Nobody's business but theirs.



Your words. You haven't let go of it at all.

I think I mostly have, but my recent examination has sort of brought it to the surface again. Obviously I can't forget what I know, but before this recent time of examination for me, I truly did not think of her past at all. It did not cross my mind.

But as I've begun to examine our relationship, the thought has come up again, because I feel so undesired by her, and then I remember that there was a time when she seemed to give herself freely to other men. It's just hard to reconcile that when I ponder it for a moment, but like I said, for years it never really crossed my mind. It was in the past, and it still is, but I've just been in my head about all this too much recently, so it's kind of resurfaced for a moment. I'm sure if we continue to work at this, and hopefully enjoy one another more sexually, it will fall into the recesses of my brain once again, without much care.


I attempted to sit her down last night after work, as I was feeling very passionate about getting us on a better course. I sat her down, and looked her in the eyes, and said "I want all of you, and I want to give all of myself to you. I want to live more passionately with you. I've realized that you are all that I truly need in this world."

This was met with a simple "Ok." No, not even an "I love you". Just an "ok". This is what I mean when I say things about her lack of passionate love. Even when I say the most intimate thing to her, the response I get is anything but love, or deep affection in return. It was a blunt acknowledgment, and then a desire to resume her TV watching. The most deep thing I've ever heard from her is "I love you", and even those don't come super easy. They are often the response to me saying it first. Just once I'd love to hear something in return like "You are my husband, and I love you more than anything". It's important to note, my wife isn't exactly a person with a limited dialogue, or unintelligent vocabulary. She's a smart woman, and she speaks easily about things she's interested in, but when it comes to expression emotions or passionately thoughts, they are almost non-existent.

[CHANDLERS WISH]

Don't you think that's come from just having sex instead of intimacy over this period of time? All this time?

How do you reach a soul?

What is a soul?

With passion, desire, lust, love...............two souls meet.

It hasn't ever happened, it's sex.

And, nothing happens over night. She may feel numb of never having the true intimacy that a woman craves for, to be touched, bought to orgasm, via foreplay, to touch you, to own it, to give pleasure, pure passion.

How can a woman be passionate, if she has never been passionate with you? And, this stems from that chat 7.5 years ago...

CW