[pretzel]

This reflects some fundamental attitudes about women and men's roles. Women are supposed to get pleasure from providing pleasure to men, her own needs, desires and orgasm are secondary or tertiary.


Men will make comments about women being "brutal" about a man who's sexual performance doesn't measure up, what they fail to see is that honesty doesn't have to equate to brutality. As a society we have functioned and been conditioned to the idea that male sexual needs trump women's needs. Men can objectify women with virtual impunity and no one seems to see what that does to a woman's responses and ability to own and connect with her own body. The idea that a lifetime of non orgasm is ok for women because it doesn't matter to us is totally bogus but we've bought it and help perpetuate it.

WC, I would like to think that as our society is starting to evolve from that stereotype but quite frankly is still a long way away from equality. Although a relatively minute population from the general, but if you look at the views of many of our younger posters, there is a sense growing that both partners pleasure and sexual fulfillment is starting to become of greater importance.

You brought up an interesting point in your second paragraph and when reading it, I was reminded of the segment of a thread (and I think it may have been Ask Men) about what would be intimadating for a man. I would venture to say that if a poll was taken that asks "If a woman was sexually aggressive, would you be intimadated by that?", I bet more people would say yes than no. I think that plays right into your comment about the perpetuation of the view of women being ok with being "non-orgasmic".

[WildChild]

WC, I would like to think that as our society is starting to evolve from that stereotype but quite frankly is still a long way away from equality. Although a relatively minute population from the general, but if you look at the views of many of our younger posters, there is a sense growing that both partners pleasure and sexual fulfillment is starting to become of greater importance.

I think you are right about this but it only goes so far. Younger women are certainly often more sexualized but often does not translate into more orgasmic. Very simply we learn about sex from what? Media? Teen fumbling around? Our parents? The growing acceptance of porn certainly doesn't promote a view of women as having much purpose other than fulfilling men's fantasies.
Not many good resources, really.
There is change happening but it seems to be largely based in ignorance and more fumbling around.

You brought up an interesting point in your second paragraph and when reading it, I was reminded of the segment of a thread (and I think it may have been Ask Men) about what would be intimadating for a man. I would venture to say that if a poll was taken that asks "If a woman was sexually aggressive, would you be intimadated by that?", I bet more people would say yes than no. I think that plays right into your comment about the perpetuation of the view of women being ok with being "non-orgasmic".

I agree. I don't consider myself "aggressive" but I have no problem with initiating sex, except that in my experience, after the first couple weeks, most men reject that. They really can't handle a woman who wants sex. What they want is a woman who acquiesces to sex when THEY want it. Turn the tables and give them a woman who lets them know she wants it and many of them will turn it into a control drama and actually cut her off. I have had men (one in particular) flat out say, "we'll have it when I want it, the way I want it, or not at all". As far as I know he and Rosie are still busy with each other.

[pretzel]

Might be a good time to revive the "Effects of Porn on Society" thread. That was a good conversation.

[waya]

I second WildChild that many men like to say or think they want to be with a woman who wants sex a lot. But when they actually have it, they don't know how to handle it. Perhaps some feel less like a man if the woman they're with enjoys sex more than they do.

[ItsASecret]

I would venture to say that if a poll was taken that asks "If a woman was sexually aggressive, would you be intimadated by that?", I bet more people would say yes than no.

I dunno. You poll an older gentleman and I think it would be a "yes". However you poll a crowd of guys my age, 22, and they will jump for joy at the thought of a woman willing to just jump on him whenever she wants...why? Because guys my age equate young women acting like that to the fantasy production girls in porn. They love the idea of a girl just having sex at hello, they love the idea of having hardcore porn sex (because this is typically what they are looking for at that age), they love the idea of it being so simple, they believe it is just like porn...and they love their porn. That "oh my God she is flashing me, she is spreading, she is blowing me at any given moment just like porn girls!!!! this is flippin sweet". The average girl is not that, so the second it could appear they will go bats*** for them. A lot of girls need prep time, to be loved, to be held to just have that initial lovey dovey stuff and they want nothing to do with that, so the idea of a girl limiting that prep time or skipping it altogether because she is raring to go is an absolute wonder. Many guys that age would love nothing more than for a girl to jump on them, to initiate without question, to spread the second they get home from work (because she wants to do that)...that girl is the fantasy just like they love to see on the internet. They do not see "awesome great she is comfortable with herself to initiate", no, they see "oh my god this is just like girls gone wild".

[pretzel]

Well, as you know, I'm in the older gentleman's category so maybe my views would most certainly be different now than they were when I was your age. And, yes, at your age I probably would be just like the guys you know so there is a part of what your saying that does have some truth.

Where I may differentiate and still agree with WC is that a women similar to what you've described is somewhat different from what I had in mind as aggressive. By that I'm meaning a woman who understands and wants those things that she finds pleasurable and isn't afraid to demand that of their partner. I think this is a different type of person who is aggressive in quantity but not necessarily aggressive in quality.

[Texinator]

I think what many men - though certainly not all men - want is a woman who is "passively sexual." That means she's willing to sex whenever and however he wants it, but she doesn't communicate any desires of her own. He doesn't have to worry about taking the time and making the effort to please her then. I don't know if that comes from the false belief that women can't/shouldn't feel sexual pleasure, if it is due to laziness, or a combination of both. That's why there are men that would rather masturbate to porn than have sex with a real woman, because two minutes of "handiwork" is faster and easier than making sure she's also feeling good.

[Guest]

Physical intimacy/sex for me is all about getting/helping my partner achieve orgasm(s) first. It may sound Hokey to some, but it's all about my partner. I feel/realize tremendous amounts of joy and satisfaction knowing/seeing that she was able to orgasm as a result of our physical activity.

In addition, I believe, for me, that there are many types of "orgasm"...mental as well as physical.

So if I am able to ejaculate then that's icing on the cake. If not, I can be perfectly content knowing that she did.

[cocoa]

I agree. I don't consider myself "aggressive" but I have no problem with initiating sex, except that in my experience, after the first couple weeks, most men reject that. They really can't handle a woman who wants sex. What they want is a woman who acquiesces to sex when THEY want it. Turn the tables and give them a woman who lets them know she wants it and many of them will turn it into a control drama and actually cut her off. I have had men (one in particular) flat out say, "we'll have it when I want it, the way I want it, or not at all". As far as I know he and Rosie are still busy with each other.

Why do they do this? Just doesn't make sense *scratches head*

[ItsASecret]

Where I may differentiate and still agree with WC is that a women similar to what you've described is somewhat different from what I had in mind as aggressive. By that I'm meaning a woman who understands and wants those things that she finds pleasurable and isn't afraid to demand that of their partner. I think this is a different type of person who is aggressive in quantity but not necessarily aggressive in quality.

Absolutely there is a difference. There is the strong confident woman who initiates and demands things because that is who she is, and then there is the girls gone wild that young guys try to pursue or hopes that the average girl will turn into. The difference I believe comes from age, the young want hardcore, the older may want it more meaningful and less physically aggressive.

That's why there are men that would rather masturbate to porn than have sex with a real woman, because two minutes of "handiwork" is faster and easier than making sure she's also feeling good.

And because those production women do things that the SO may never want even mentioned. The girls in the production are soooooo good they do not want to accept that it is fake, how can something that looks so visually good and responds so visually well be so incredibly fake? The guys want that fantasy, they know is not real but do not want to accept is not real and therefore go to the porn instead of having to deal with the real wife/gf/SO who would never dream of doing those things.