[SaharaJim]

I guess I just go back to one of my earlier posts- what consenting adults choose to do isn't anyone
else's business. Labeling someone elses choices as "sick" or "unhealthy" seems to me to be painting with a pretty broad brush. Itsasecret makes no bones about saying that what I do "makes her sick". My sub and I really don't care- we are "happy" with what our relationship is. I don't think either of us would be comfortable with a relationship like yours- but last time I checked- no one was asking us to be in such a relationship. And we certainly are not telling Itsasecret that she? needs to engage in our game playing lifestyle or that you need to limit yourself to our lifestyle. I found your posts educational and "instructive"( a whole new set of games to play). Thank you and please take no offense at what I say...I get misunderstood on the internet as well.

[Stillness]

Just knowing that there are actually people like rosekitten is educational to me. I still don't get how you can have a limited "absolute" control or how burning your spouse with fire is a wholesome expression of love. It doesn't seem healthy to me, but I don't fully understand the concept. I do agree that it's not my business. I don't agree that consent makes something healthy. A couple could consent to smoke crack together. I wouldn't judge them - it's not my place. I'd probably get along with them if they're cool people. But if they're easily offended, they probably wouldn't want to get into a discussion with me about the goodness of rock cocaine.

[rosekitten]

It wouldn't be healthy if I did it to him and he didn't want me to. Some people get off on pain. Fire turns me on. Being burned is not pleasurable to my husband, and it would be sick if I did it anyways. The control isn't limited, but the limits that are there I allow to be there because I love him and want him to be happy. He would let me burn him, but he wouldn't be happy, so I have no desire to do so. As far as the comparison to destructive drugs, that's troublesome. Cocaine will kill, and when it doesn't kill, it destroys the body. Nothing that we do together causes and sort of actual damage to us, so I don't see the comparison as valid. Granted, what grown adults do together is their own business, but let's not compare apples to fish.

[shoshannah]

The OP has asked a complicated question about more than one thing: sex, and control, and submission, and humiliation, and pain. I think it is important to realize they do not always go together. it depends on the couple and even the occasion. For instance, my boyfriend and I am not into humiliation or pain, but we have found since we have been together that he is naturally submissive to me in bed. I took some time to get used to it, but I am OK with it now.

Specifically, sex for him is about becoming vulnerable and surrendering control to me. He is a very shy person (and so am I for that matter) and doesn't like to share his thoughts/feelings with other people, and so the openness of sex is a very vulnerable moment for him (and me too). But where we differ is interesting. The way he has described it to me, when we begin intercourse he is surrendering himself to me. He decides (or we jointly decide) to have sex, but once he acts on that decision and enters me, he no longer is in control of himself. My body, and particularly my vagina, control his involuntary reactions, forcing him to get more and more excited (vulnerable) and basically _making_ him have an orgasm, which is an even more vulnerable moment for him because I am there with him witnessing and experiencing it. And as a result of his orgasm he ejaculates in me, which raises the possibility of getting me pregnant (even though I'm on the pill) with all the loss of freedom and self-determination etc. that that signifies. He finds the whole thing emotionally scary in a fun kind of way, and I have learned to find it empowering (since I'm insecure about my looks and it is fulfilling to me to know that he finds me sexy/attractive).

I bring this up to try to show the deep psychology of it, even though it isn't really what I would call bdsm (I actually don't know enough about bdsm to know if this qualifies). Sex is a very deep and complex business involving how two people relate to each other, and that means power as well--who has it, who doesn't, and how each partner feels about it.

[ItsASecret]

Itsasecret makes no bones about saying that what I do "makes her sick". My sub and I really don't care- we are "happy" with what our relationship is. I don't think either of us would be comfortable with a relationship like yours- but last time I checked- no one was asking us to be in such a relationship. And we certainly are not telling Itsasecret that she? needs to engage in our game playing lifestyle or that you need to limit yourself to our lifestyle. I found your posts educational and "instructive"( a whole new set of games to play). Thank you and please take no offense at what I say...I get misunderstood on the internet as well.

No offense taken at all. I have 100% stated that when things of the BDSM nature, even the light stuff like bondage, makes me uneasy. I have tried it in my relationship and did not like it at all. The more hardcore stuff like pain infliction and whips and chains is naturally going to make me feel even more uneasy with merely mentioning it but I have respect for other's choices and I would never say a person should not do it because I completely understand that other people do enjoy it. As long as I am not forced into it or told to engage in it anyway even if I do not like it because others love it then I will remain nothing but respectful to those engaging in it otherwise my uneasy feelings with certainly creep in during discussion.

[DreamP346]

The OP has asked a complicated question about more than one thing: sex, and control, and submission, and humiliation, and pain. I think it is important to realize they do not always go together. it depends on the couple and even the occasion. For instance, my boyfriend and I am not into humiliation or pain, but we have found since we have been together that he is naturally submissive to me in bed. I took some time to get used to it, but I am OK with it now.

Specifically, sex for him is about becoming vulnerable and surrendering control to me. He is a very shy person (and so am I for that matter) and doesn't like to share his thoughts/feelings with other people, and so the openness of sex is a very vulnerable moment for him (and me too). But where we differ is interesting. The way he has described it to me, when we begin intercourse he is surrendering himself to me. He decides (or we jointly decide) to have sex, but once he acts on that decision and enters me, he no longer is in control of himself. My body, and particularly my vagina, control his involuntary reactions, forcing him to get more and more excited (vulnerable) and basically _making_ him have an orgasm, which is an even more vulnerable moment for him because I am there with him witnessing and experiencing it. And as a result of his orgasm he ejaculates in me, which raises the possibility of getting me pregnant (even though I'm on the pill) with all the loss of freedom and self-determination etc. that that signifies. He finds the whole thing emotionally scary in a fun kind of way, and I have learned to find it empowering (since I'm insecure about my looks and it is fulfilling to me to know that he finds me sexy/attractive).

I bring this up to try to show the deep psychology of it, even though it isn't really what I would call bdsm (I actually don't know enough about bdsm to know if this qualifies). Sex is a very deep and complex business involving how two people relate to each other, and that means power as well--who has it, who doesn't, and how each partner feels about it.

You make a great point and this is exactly what I wanted to discuss. BDSM is one aspect but there are so many other levels of domination, submission, etc. That desire to completely surreder interests me. For you and your partner, you are naturally shy and closed off. But when it comes to sex, it is different. That polar opposite desires is what is so fasinating.

[Stillness]

That's some deep stuff, shoshannah.

I don't think sex involves dichotomous power in every relationship, though. I don't experience it. My wife and I are the same with each other no matter where we are or what we're doing. I do experience the things your fiancé describes, but my feelings are in some ways out of control all the time. She can stimulate joy, pride, pain, anger, and excitement that I don't completely control. The whole relationship has taken on a life of its own that is inseparably intertwined into my personal life. All the different aspects - sexual, romantic, business, familial, spiritual, recreation - are parts of the whole. We don't use birth control so I feel that lack of control at the possibility of bringing new life into the world sharply. That life would be a product of the union of our lives, not just the sexual act.

It feels natural to me. I can't imagine it being any other way, unless it was some sort of role-playing. That's why this goes over my head. I wish I could understand. I find it intriguing. It reminds me of one of my favorite songs by one of my favorite artists called I'm Cheatin', where the sexual dichotomy in a relationship is confusing and fulfilling. I think I like it so much because it's so foreign to me.