[rcoreyus]

Being drunk does not in any way excuse rape, but it can make it very difficult to tell after the fact if a rape has actually happened. Sometimes in these cases, both parties were so intoxicated that they do not have a clear memory of the previous evening. The law has to be biased on the side of the accused so when things aren't clear prosecution is almost impossible.

[DreamP346]

I have a relative that was raped. She was in college at the time hanging out with her boyfriend and some friends at one of the friend's home. Everybody was drinking. She felt comfortable as she was with her boyfriend and his friends. She got drunk. She went to the bathroom and one of her boyfriend's friends came in behind her after she had pulled her pants off and sat on the toilet and forced oral sex on her (him performing).

When she me told I said, "Why not scream out?!" She could barely remember all the details. She was thinking that someone was going to get killed if she called out. She never reported it or even told her boyfriend. She got counseling, but is still scarred, I suspect. (Although I haven't asked her about it in about 5 years, the last time I did she said it still affects her). She admitted to me that it felt good and that contributes to the shame and guilt.

If she had reported it I imagine that he would have been claiming that it was consensual and that she regretted it later. He might have argued that they were both drunk. Ironically, there may be some truth to that. She didn't initiate it or want to do it, but at some point probably let it happened and didn't call for help which was right in the next room. The problem was that she was put in a position where she needed to call for help. If she hadn't been drunk, she would have. And most importantly, he was the aggressor and she was not lucid enough to consent.

Here is my point. I think that a lot of people imagine two kids being drunk and "one thing leading to another" and the young lady regretting it in the morning. They think that everybody does regrettable stuff when they're drunk. And I agree that sex while drinking does not equal victimization. I've had my fair share of fun under the influence. But if someone claims that they were raped and goes so far as to subject themselves to the legal system to get justice, it's very likely that the "one thing leading to another" involves someone violating them while they were in a vulnerable state in which they were not properly equipped to give consent. That is rape. So, to me, the "Kids get drunk, have sex, one party (99/100 the female) regrets it and claims rape" explanation, while true, glosses over the reality. If a drunk woman is walking home in the dark and a drunk stranger jumps out of the bushes and brutally beats her into submission and penetrates her you could say, "They got drunk, had sex, and she regretted it."

I know that message wasn't official and didn't come from you, buddhaboy. But I do feel that it reflects a popular mischaracterization of rape - one that I've probably been guilty of myself. It's such a terrible thing that the mind can tend to search for a way to excuse it or explain it away. So we say things like, "Some women lie" or "She regretted it afterwards" or "They were both drunk." I think we really need to be careful that we don't further victimize someone who's already been violated by minimizing their pain. The reason why "we were both drunk" is not a defense is because it's not valid.

If I could give a "super like" to your post, I would. You say it perfectly. I didn't want to respond to this topic because I was getting too wound up and upset and knew I would say things that I would probably regret. we live in a culture where there is too much victim blaming. We teach women how not to get raped - don't drink with strangers, don't wear provacative clothers, etc. But we don't teach men how not to rape. Yeah, we hear the "no means no" but there is no teaching about don't have sex with a drunk woman who can't consent, just because they consent to kissing and touching, that isn't a invitation to intercourse, etc. There are so many layers to sex and consent. We don't equipt our young people to handle these decisions properly.

Its true, many rape cases are not black and white because from the attacker's perpective, he truly believes he didn't do anything wrong. When a boy grows up constantly hearing things like "she was asking for it" or "she just changed her mind the next morning", he is going to grow up not fully understanding the consequences of consent when it comes to rape.

OK, I will get off my soap box now. Just had to get that out.

[Hugo-B]

An attorney from the USA who lived in the UK for a while would pick up the local phrasing, I suppose, so I wasn't necessarily calling you out. I did think it was a strange way to put things for most people from the USA. Since learning Thai as an adult, and also from growing up near the border with Canada, I am aware of variations in our common language.

As for having sex, it is always best if you are in control of yourself and are with someone who is in control of them self. In situations where rape is claimed I would think that the man is more aggressive most of the time. Some guys wish to get the girl drunk and then take advantage as a normal (for them) strategy.

No problems, I was the one essentially in the wrong since I was presenting information and stating it was 'verbatim' when I was actually paraphrasing. I think you did the right thing :-)

Interesting what you say about languages; I had a Polish GF for a while who was always texting me, now when I read something written in English by someone Polish I can immediately tell they're Polish by the spelling/grammatical mistakes they often make i.e., they will write, 'something is going to happened to them' instead of happen.

I think we all have a responsibility to make sure we are not taking advantage of another person. Women are more vulnerable than men and men owe a duty to women who feel safe in their company not to abuse that trust. The rape debate and the appropriate way to deal with complainants and the accused is never ending IMO and in that sense is comparable to the abortion debate in that it will never end. There is no 'perfect' way to protect the rights and best interests of both party's whilst adhering to the presumption of innocence.

[Hugo-B]

If I could give a "super like" to your post, I would. You say it perfectly. I didn't want to respond to this topic because I was getting too wound up and upset and knew I would say things that I would probably regret. we live in a culture where there is too much victim blaming. We teach women how not to get raped - don't drink with strangers, don't wear provacative clothers, etc. But we don't teach men how not to rape. Yeah, we hear the "no means no" but there is no teaching about don't have sex with a drunk woman who can't consent, just because they consent to kissing and touching, that isn't a invitation to intercourse, etc. There are so many layers to sex and consent. We don't equipt our young people to handle these decisions properly.

Its true, many rape cases are not black and white because from the attacker's perpective, he truly believes he didn't do anything wrong. When a boy grows up constantly hearing things like "she was asking for it" or "she just changed her mind the next morning", he is going to grow up not fully understanding the consequences of consent when it comes to rape.

OK, I will get off my soap box now. Just had to get that out.

Stillness, I agree with what you're saying. That was a really good post and I'm sorry to hear about your relative. I always make an effort to show my sincere compassion for people on here who have been the victim of these kind of crimes. I have also never tried to defend rapists or blame rape on women.

The point I wanted to make in response to SP's post pertained directly to false accusations of rape and retrospective withdrawal of consent, because the statistics don't include accusations which don't go any further than an accusation and do not lead to charges. This in my opinion can lead to misleading statistics.

In the UK now the government are doing a lot of 'drink awareness' advertising, encouraged at women to drink less (we have this 'binge drinking culture' thing going on) and adverts geared towards men which say things like, 'when a women says no she means no'. It is sad that we live in a culture where the government feel they need to put up adverts to remind men to be sure if a woman is consenting to sex or not...

SP346, I'm sorry if I wound you up, that wasn't my intention and I hope you know I do respect your opinion and don't advocate and kind of sexual offenses perpetrated towards anyone. To conclude I find it frightening really that people can abuse each others trust in such horrible ways, a man raping a woman is unforgivable, whilst a woman putting a man through the humiliation and torment of a false accusation is also awful. I have mentioned in previous threads that my ex GF was raped when she was 16 (by a stranger) so I have been directly affected by these issues and have lived with someone who's trying to cope with the inevitable damage it has left them.



x

[Hugo-B]

This isn't directly relevant to the thread but it is something I suddenly remember last night that I haven't thought about for over 10 years, the last time I remember mentioning it was to my first GF.

When I was 13 i started secondary school (I think you call it 'high school') I used to cycle to school and having OCD and ADHD I had a thing about having to arrive on time and not being late, and consequently would arrive about 20 minutes early every day and be one of the first people there.

At this age I had never kissed a girl and hadn't started masturbating.

I used to cycle to school down a long road filled with large and expensive houses. Down that road close to the school was a phone box. This was way before people had mobile phones, so phones boxes were very much in use back then. every morning when I approached the phone box it would start ringing, and I would just look at it and ride past. So somebody could see me each morning as I cycled towards it.

One morning, being the inquisitive little sausage I was, I decided I was going to stop and answer it. When I answered it, although I cannot recall the exact conversation a man quickly asked me if I had masturbated the night before. To be honest back then I don't think I really even understood what masturbating was, and hadn't yet reached the stage where I did it. I think the best riposte I could conjure up was, 'no, did you?' he replied by telling me he was masturbating 'right now'. I was a chubby baby faced thing back then, and definitely didn't look a day older than I was, he knew I was just a kid.

I can't remember anything else but I hung up the phone and didn't tell anyone, not my friends, not my parents, not anyone. I felt slightly ashamed and a little humiliated that I didn't understand what he was talking about and that I wasn't yet mature enough to be doing any of those things. I don't think to this day I've actually told my mom.

When I cast my mind back to this (and I do know that in comparison to some of the atrocities people here have suffered it really is nothing) I think that incident has provided me with some kind of insight as to why victims of these kind of crimes would be loath or more likely downright terrified to report attacks to the police.

I know that the abortion, and rape debate can quickly become heated and emotive, but I really have been provided with some very educational and thought provoking perspectives on these subjects by the contributors here. I do take on board what people say and if I'm wrong or feel my opinion or outlook has evolved due to having learned something I will freely admit so.

SP346, if you ever feel the need to 'unload' and tell me what you think of me and my opinion then feel free, you don't need to regret anything. I can take it and have probably asked for it. You wouldn't be the first either. I do respect the rights of women and I hope you and everyone else sees that reflected in my posts.

[Little]

If I could give a "super like" to your post, I would. You say it perfectly. I didn't want to respond to this topic because I was getting too wound up and upset and knew I would say things that I would probably regret. we live in a culture where there is too much victim blaming. We teach women how not to get raped - don't drink with strangers, don't wear provacative clothers, etc. But we don't teach men how not to rape. Yeah, we hear the "no means no" but there is no teaching about don't have sex with a drunk woman who can't consent, just because they consent to kissing and touching, that isn't a invitation to intercourse, etc. There are so many layers to sex and consent. We don't equipt our young people to handle these decisions properly.

Its true, many rape cases are not black and white because from the attacker's perpective, he truly believes he didn't do anything wrong. When a boy grows up constantly hearing things like "she was asking for it" or "she just changed her mind the next morning", he is going to grow up not fully understanding the consequences of consent when it comes to rape.

OK, I will get off my soap box now. Just had to get that out.

I've gotta say that I feel exactly the same as SP. 1, that Stillness's post is right on, and 2, that I couldn't continue responding to this thread because it was so hurtful. It was like reading a circle jerk of guys just going "yeaahhhh man, all those girls are just LYING about rape!" While we are all capable of reading and knowing that this perception wasn't 100% accurate and doesn't reflect the nuances of the conversation, it's hard as a survivor to read anybody saying anything negative about a woman brave enough to say anything to ANYBODY, law enforcement or otherwise.

[rcoreyus]

In discussions like this people map their own experiences onto other people's words. There is also a tendency to argue over how "common" something is. In this case false rape accusations. Such accusations do happen, but they do not happen all the time. Its not at all clear to me what value there is in deciding how common they are, especially since there is limited data, and people will disagree on definitions (complaints? accusations? criminal charges? etc).

I think that what is important in this case is that the justice system can't convict someone of rape solely on the word of the victim. This means that women would be wise to avoid situations where a rape would be indistinguishable to an outside person form consensual sex. Probably the most common situation of this type is a drunken party: The victim may know that she was raped, but if there is no physical injury, no direct witnesses, and an outside observer can believe that the sex could have been consensual, then it will be almost impossible to prosecute.

A woman who gets blind drunk at a party does NOT deserve to be raped, in the same way that someone walking through a dangerous neighborhood alone at night doesn't deserve to be mugged. In both cases a wise person will still avoid these activities.

[Stillness]

Ok, so now I'm going to stop biting my tongue. Sometimes when people say obvious things that most people agree on like "the justice system can't convict someone of rape solely on the word of the victim" or things that seem helpful and concerned like "women would be wise to avoid situations where a rape would be indistinguishable to an outside person form consensual sex" they mean just that, and that's all to it. But sometimes it's something more.

All people have things in their world that are normal. They may be real things in the places they travel and the people they see or they may be modes of thinking that they hold to. When something different from that thing or a new idea is encountered a disconnect often occurs that prevents them from processing. It most often happens when the "normal" is something they don't pay attention to or even know exists. I see it on a regular basis when I meet Chinese people. When Chinese comes out of my mouth sometimes they respond to me in English and a few exchanges into our conversation realize that I'm speaking Chinese. Or when the disconnect is really the greatest they can't understand me. They'll even say, "I don't speak English." I'll tell them, "I'm speaking Chinese." I pause and watch the wheels turn. It's funny because their "normal" is so different from what I am that words can't even cross the logical disconnect to reach their language center. It doesn't make them bad people. They probably didn't even know that they had a prejudice. But they can hear my words, touch me, and see me, so they can't deny me for long.

Ideas are harder. Sometimes they're held so deeply that we can't even recognize them, let alone shake them when they're unreal. But if we (whether we're a man or a woman) think that women are sweet little emotionally unstable, unreliable, innocent, naïve, weak-willed, fickle creatures it will show eventually when there's an encounter with someone who doesn't hold that belief. That's why I like this thread. If you ask, "Do women rape men?" whether the answer is negative or affirmative, the next question, "Why?" or "Why not?", can start to strip away prejudice and overcome disconnects between what a person says and what they really believe. It can humanize and equalize men and women. Do women not rape men because they're less sexual and more innocent or because they lack physical and social power? Are women just as capable of good and bad; honesty and deceit; reliability and untrustworthiness? If it's accepted that they are, then we no longer have to say it and can move on to real solutions. It's only necessary to say certain things in the presence or doubt - whether we're trying to convince someone else or ourselves.

If someone says, "women would be wise to avoid drunken parties" then the question is: Would men be just as wise to avoid drunken parties? If they would not, then, why? If they would, then why didn't you say, "Everyone should avoid drunken parties"? Why is it necessary to say the justice system can't convict on the basis of a victims word? Most everyone accepts that. Why in this discussion is it mentioned so much? In what way is this discussion like the pro-abortion/anti-abortion debate? In that case some people are for it and some against. What is the debate in regards to rape? If you're dishonest then you'll fabricate an opinion that no one really holds to argue against. It's called a strawman and it's a logical fallacy. If you're honest with yourself I guarantee most everyone will agree.

Intellectually honest people will search through their beliefs, conscious and subconscious, and make sure they line up with reality and their principles. One Chinese person told me, "You are not a real black man." This is a logical fallacy, too. People use them to preserve their unrealistic prejudices internally even as they verbally acknowledge reality. "Women are equal and not to blame for being raped, BUT it's better if they stay at home and let the men have their fun."

[rcoreyus]

When I say things like the, there isn't a subtext. I also think men should avoid drunken parties - there is considerable risk for them as well. I say that it is difficult to convict someone of rape based only on the victim's statement because it is. It is possible for someone to be raped, but for there to be no way for them to prove it to a jury.

So I suggest that people avoid situations where they can become victims of a crime. I'd advise men and women against getting so intoxicated that they are not able to deal with potentially dangerous situations. I did say "women" should avoid drunken parties because we were talking about rape, and (outside of prison) women are predominately the victims.

I think women can and do rape men, but that is is less common than men raping women for a variety of reasons. (strength differences, differences in sexual response, social differences, etc).

[Stillness]

I did say "women" should avoid drunken parties because we were talking about rape, and (outside of prison) women are predominately the victims.

Agreed and agreed. We were also discussing the rapist/accused rapist and his experience. It was just curious that you initially placed the onus on the woman. I can't imagine sitting down with my sons and daughters (if I had some) and saying, "Girls, watch out for those drunken parties. Boys, go have a good time." I think that mentality is partially to blame - that boys will be boys and get it however they can, so it's the girl's responsibility to protect herself. Everybody should protect themselves and not have casual sex with drunk people.

(Incidentally another poster just posted on another thread about her boyfriend's friend taking advantage of her at a drunken party. Bizarre stuff.)

It is possible for someone to be raped, but for there to be no way for them to prove it to a jury.

Ok. Was someone disagreeing with this, though? Maybe I am reading too much into it, but I just don't get why it's stated. I could see if someone said, "Whenever someone is accused we should hang 'em!" I don't think anyone stated anything like that or even believes it, for that matter. The western mind pretty much unanimously embraces the presumption of innocence - so much so that it's odd to see it stated in the absence of of a contrary statement.

Then again, I'm probably a bit sensitive. My best friend is a rape victim. Also, people with my ancestry can be a bit too keen on perceiving discrimination. "Don't go to drunken parties if you don't want to get raped" sounds like "If you get raped at a drunken party it's your fault" which sounds like "If you coloreds come 'round these parts we can't control what we do to you." Forgive my ears.