[rcoreyus]

I think that in discussions like this people (including me) are also responding to comments they have heard in other similar discussions, not just this one. I have heard some people clam that we should believe almost any rape accusation - but that doesn't fit my view of justice so I made the comment. There were some prominent rape cases discussed (in a different forum) where many people were outraged that the jury acquitted - but to me while it seemed likely that he was guilty, there wasn't enough evidence to support a "beyond a reasonable doubt".

I am also trying to separate the concepts of "fault" from "taking risks". If someone walks alone at night in a known dangerous part of town and they are mugged, they are absolutely not at fault. On the other hand if they can reasonably avoid that situation then they can reduce their chances of being mugged. In the same way a person who gets very drunk at a party is not at fault if they are raped, but they are putting themselves at risk of being raped.

This is (for many reasons) a very touchy subject and in drying to dance around some landmines I may have stepped on others. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

[Stillness]

This is (for many reasons) a very touchy subject and in drying to dance around some landmines I may have stepped on others. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

No offense taken here, rcoreyus. It's concern. You say you brought other discussions in, I have too - including some internal ones.

I went out to lunch with my friend that was raped about a decade ago. She had already told me about the rape. During that lunch she opened up and told me that in a cruel twist of fate she was raped a second time that same night. She was dazed, but sobering up after getting home with her boyfriend. Her boyfriend was still pretty drunk. He forced himself on her.

I was dumbfounded. The first guy I didn't know, but I knew the boyfriend. I didn't ask a lot of questions. I just let her talk. From what I gather, he hadn't done anything like that before. He didn't even realize that he had done anything wrong. My guess is that, ignorant to the fact that she had just been traumatized, he didn't expect resistance and couldn't recognize it when it was given in his drunken state.

I've wondered a lot since then how a man, even a drunk one, could rape his woman. I've wondered how she and other women and their relationships and are affected by rape. Does some part of them think that men view their bodies as things just for their pleasure? Does their self-esteem become more closely intertwined with their bodies? A few months ago there was a study (google "Women viewed as body parts while men as whole human beings") that demonstrated that men and women visually process women differently from men. Men were processed "globally" using the methods that we use to identify people. Women's parts were processed "locally" in the same way we process objects. I don't get all caught up in the "latest studies." But I can't help but to wonder if the men that raped my best friend and the men who take advantage of drunk women in general are seeing them as objects there for their enjoyment. Part of it is informed by my own experience. I know that somewhere in the back of my brain and in other male brains drunk girl = fun. To me, that idea is part of the root of the problem of drunken rape, not women being at drunken parties. I hate it and want to crush it out of existence.

[ItsASecret]

I know that somewhere in the back of my brain and in other male brains drunk girl = fun. To me, that idea is part of the root of the problem of drunken rape, not women being at drunken parties. I hate it and want to crush it out of existence.

I entirely agree but unfortunately it is ingrained in the minds of the young nowadays and it is not going anywhere. I am only 23 but seeing the guys around me at this age it utterly disgusts me to see how men see/treat women. As soon as a woman has a drink in hand men seem to think it is an automatic invitation to pursue that "fun" time that you mention, which to them means sex. A woman who is drinking, or who is drunk is not a defined invitation for sex or a reason to be sexually pursued. Certain men want it to be definite reason and will argue until they are blue in the face that drunk girls are the best and how men should be able to go after them and how awesome it is to get a girl drunk and have sex with her but there is a fine line between having fun and taking advantage of her. Having fun is entirely possible when drunk, one can have a blast at a friend's house playing games and drinking but that does not mean that she should be hounded for sex like some object just because the man is horny and she is under the influence. So I completely agree that this style of thinking should be crushed but the realist in me knows it will never ever happen.

[rcoreyus]

I'm not the best person to comment here since I don't drink, but anyway: I think that being drunk lowers inhibitions, and lowers your ability to observe and think rationally. The boyfriend who raped the girlfriend who was just returning from a previous rape probably didn't realize what he was doing. In his impaired state he didn't recognize her resistance. (and in her both traumatized and impaired state she may not have made things clear). This does NOT excuse his behavior!!! A person is responsible for their own actions even if they are drunk. I just use it as an example of how being drunk can make an otherwise reasonable person behave in a horrible fashion.

I'm not saying that people should avoid the "demon drink" at all costs, but I DO think that people should be very careful about getting so intoxicated that they are not completely in control of their behavior. I understand drinking some to relax and enjoy company, but what is the attraction of getting completely blotto?

[a_dub]

I entirely agree but unfortunately it is ingrained in the minds of the young nowadays and it is not going anywhere. I am only 23 but seeing the guys around me at this age it utterly disgusts me to see how men see/treat women. As soon as a woman has a drink in hand men seem to think it is an automatic invitation to pursue that "fun" time that you mention, which to them means sex. A woman who is drinking, or who is drunk is not a defined invitation for sex or a reason to be sexually pursued. Certain men want it to be definite reason and will argue until they are blue in the face that drunk girls are the best and how men should be able to go after them and how awesome it is to get a girl drunk and have sex with her but there is a fine line between having fun and taking advantage of her. Having fun is entirely possible when drunk, one can have a blast at a friend's house playing games and drinking but that does not mean that she should be hounded for sex like some object just because the man is horny and she is under the influence. So I completely agree that this style of thinking should be crushed but the realist in me knows it will never ever happen.

Aren't the women who knowingly and repeatedly put themself in these situations equally to blame as the predatory males? How is this any different from a woman who works as an escort, knows her job is risky, still refuses to use condoms, and then sobs about catching HIV? Sure its the douchebag's fault who infected her, but she's just as guilty for not protecting herself!

The only difference I see is that escorting is taboo while drinking is not. Perhaps its time for a societal re-think...

[Little]

Sure, just like every innocent victim is EQUALLY TO BLAME that somebody perpetrated a crime against them. {/sarcasm} How is the sex worker analogy even relevant?

Get off my lawn with that, dude. I understand that you have problems thinking of women as human beings deserving of respect and equal regard, at least as evidenced by your previous posts, but this was out-and-out trolling.

[jns]

Maybe society should refuse to prosecute a woman who offs a predatory male (withdraws societal protection). I'm certain that would change how things are done by many.

[ItsASecret]

Aren't the women who knowingly and repeatedly put themself in these situations equally to blame as the predatory males?

Drinking does not mean a woman should watch out for being raped, a woman drinking may not even want sex but certain men seem to think if a woman has a drink in her hand that she is automatically looking for sex and that is simply not the case. Drinking does not and will never equate an invitation for sex.

How is this any different from a woman who works as an escort, knows her job is risky, still refuses to use condoms, and then sobs about catching HIV? Sure its the douchebag's fault who infected her, but she's just as guilty for not protecting herself!

A prostitute chooses to have random sex, chooses that lifestyle, chooses to put her life on the line from some dbag who may potentially be carrying HIV. The woman with a drink in her hand at a bar, at a friend's house party, or just out for a nice night with her lady friends does not mean she is choosing to look for sex or choosing to be raped. Do not compare a prostitute to someone trying to have a fun night and instead ends up in a situation she wanted nothing to do with because some guy thought it would be awesome to take advantage of a girl who is mentally and physically compromised due to alcohol.

The only difference I see is that escorting is taboo while drinking is not. Perhaps its time for a societal re-think...

So you akin a woman out drinking with her friends at a pub or a house party to a prostitute? Go tell a woman that to her face and see her reaction if you truly believe in it. Certain men need a societal "re-think". Some men are so used to seeing women as nothing but an object that yeah they believe there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a woman who is incapacitated by alcohol. The difference is these men can be charged with rape.

[a_dub]

Drinking does not mean a woman should watch out for being raped, a woman drinking may not even want sex but certain men seem to think if a woman has a drink in her hand that she is automatically looking for sex and that is simply not the case. Drinking does not and will never equate an invitation for sex.

Anyone who does not watch out for danger is acting ultra foolish. Its like letting Bin Laden onto an airplane with his AK. We don't expect the TSA to do that. The examples are countless. Its not about blaming the victim or even viewing women as objects. If a man got drunk and ends up wrapping his car around a telephone pole, its tragic, its not a laughing matter, but where would you place the blame if not on the victim?

Its not that women don't know that this might happen. Women who live under rocks know that men pray on drunk women. And they still let themselves do it...why, because "its fun", and its only a "night out with my friends".

A prostitute chooses to have random sex, chooses that lifestyle, chooses to put her life on the line from some dbag who may potentially be carrying HIV. The woman with a drink in her hand at a bar, at a friend's house party, or just out for a nice night with her lady friends does not mean she is choosing to look for sex or choosing to be raped. Do not compare a prostitute to someone trying to have a fun night and instead ends up in a situation she wanted nothing to do with because some guy thought it would be awesome to take advantage of a girl who is mentally and physically compromised due to alcohol.

Yes, and high end escorts are usually very cultured, educated, and refined women who do the job out of free will. Some of them might think the job is fun and their work does include "nights out".

Ok I'll let you have the prostitute issue. Consider than a girl who likes to have sex with multiple partners unprotected because "its fun". She is of perfectly normal IQ and understands the risks involved. She catches a nasty bug. Of course its sad, of course no one is going to blame her to her face...of course its the fault of whoever gave it to her...but she is equally to blame because she acted foolishly and irresponsibly. She got in the pursuit of having fun just like the girl who got roofied up. Whats the difference?

So you akin a woman out drinking with her friends at a pub or a house party to a prostitute? Go tell a woman that to her face and see her reaction if you truly believe in it. Certain men need a societal "re-think". Some men are so used to seeing women as nothing but an object that yeah they believe there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a woman who is incapacitated by alcohol. The difference is these men can be charged with rape.

Look, just because its taboo or socially unacceptable to say it doesn't mean its incorrect. Please look at it without emotion and solely with logic. What you are saying is a drunk woman who puts herself into a risky situation and gets victimized cannot be blamed because she has a right to pursue a good time. Fine, I disagree, but not on logical grounds. However, if that is OK, then a woman who seeks merriment through irresponsible sexual activity or a kid who snorts coke all in the name of fun also cannot be blamed for the any ill consequence of their actions. You can't have it all ways.

[a_dub]

Although this isn't a gender issue...it can, rarely, cut the other way. There was a Law and Order episode where a girl was raped after she got drunk and arrested and convicted the guy who did it. Turns out, that guy was a bit of a social goof, and had a crush on this girl. He actually didn't know the girl was drunk and coupled to the fact that he was a bit socially inept, he she was coming onto him and thereby conscented. He ended up going to jail, even though he was just as innocent as the girl.

Bottom line is, yes there are creeps who take advantage of drunk college girls...my buddies have done it...my cousin does it...I would be extremely surprised if any man had never done something like that. Almost everyone has woken up next to someone they would never have slept with were they sober. 99% of people don't consider that rape, they consider it a mistake and the price of "having fun" akin to the pain of falling off your bike when you were a child.