[Justice]

Moderniste - I get what you are saying.

A couple points that I disagree with. I truly do NOT want casual sex and I don't think I ever even hinted that I do. Not sure where that came from, unless you are saying that outside of "marriage" equates to casual sex? (I think age comes into play; we are both around 50, we are not kids.)

I guess it depends on your definitions; but for me Friends With Benefits does imply more that FB or a ONS (which is what I consider casual sex); it would be a kind of on-going relationship. But I really do not see "us" as a perfect relationship match and with other stuff going on I did not see us as "dating" or working towards that typical relationship. So I was not holding out, expecting, or pining for him to be my BF.

(I guess a follow-up to the group would be ... so can only single people who are not dating anyone else be FWB?)

How we are in contact now is mostly work related - we are supposed to be working on a project together and we have some business interests where we could be of service to each other. Though he has pulled way back he does still kind of flirt. And we both have been very busy with work so there have been times it took me a week to respond as well. But I'd be a fool to not recognize that if he really wanted to go ahead now, he'd be trying harder. I initially took his pulling back as kind of respecting me saying that I wanted to be friends FIRST (ie the F WB) and his reacting to my questions regarding his status/relationship. I figured that maybe he decided to try more with his SO, before he wanted to go from fantasy to reality.

Re: intimacy - as I thought I wrote he said he was "relatively happy" with most aspects but that he was looking for intimacy - I guess silly me I assumed that meant he wanted "intimacy" not just wham bam(?) He said he wanted secrecy as to not hurt his SO - and I called him out on that as well (because yes what you don't know can still hurt you). But I have to say reading a lot of the posts here - especially from the guys - I really don't see why a non-married person would be satisfied with "relatively happy" and no sex and no intimacy in a relationship.

I was, I guess, "relatively happy" myself before he came along - sadly with no sex and no intimacy - BUT I was not and am not in a relationship where the SO is unwilling to even TRY to meet my needs.


It seems like a lot of women talk a lot revenge and blaming the woman (me in this case) - when
- if he has been truthful to me - SHE is the one not attempting to meet his needs
- if he has been lying to me - HE is the one who is cheating on HIS relationship.

I have to defend myself a bit here - I was minding my own business and started to finally start to want to own my sexuality (at 50 years!) and tried to ask the right questions as to not be out of line but to be open to a different kind of intimacy while trying not to be hurtful.....

There have been a couple of times that I really wanted to be more than friends and the guy was not interested (or vice versa); so I know I can get over it, but I really am bummed this time. Not too often that I hear of a guy propositioning a woman and when she said Yes - then HE says no. Now THAT feels like a new level of rejection.

[atskitty2]

If you want to believe women are being hard on you, when you feel that the dishonesty and responsibility is all on him, well...you become responsible when you know that he is in a relationship and you still make yourself available.
You think that fornication is markedly better, Spiritually, than adultery?

Sure it is his choice, but why interfere in another woman's relationship? Why distract a man from his commitment, from doing what is right, toward the other woman? Why not find a man unencumbered with the commitment to another woman?

I really think if you'd ever loved someone, been in a real relationship or felt love and commitment with another person, you wouldn't take so lightly your disregard for this woman and what relationship she has with this man. You can convince yourself that you're without fault, if you choose but you will likely be the one left hurting, as is often the case.

But, your question was originally regarding whether or not he is trustworthy...no. He isn't. I am not a believer that once a cheater, always a cheater. But this man has no integrity w you. He is obligated to be cordial and friendly because you work together. He lost interest because he saw that you were gonna analyze the living hell out of the situation and not just hop in bed.

He probably found a much less involved candidate for his escapades. That's what a man wants who has his other needs met-just a roll in the hay, less talk about feelings and where we stand.

Keep it moving. Better yourself and something better will show up.

[Justice]

Hard on the woman

]If you want to believe women are being hard on you, when you feel that the dishonesty and responsibility is all on him, well...you become responsible when you know that he is in a relationship and you still make yourself available.

Well I have read lots of posts here by the guys and even your responses like in Sexpectations (for just one) where the guys are encouraged to leave and where you wrote that the woman deserve to lose their guys. But in "Cannot satisfy wife" you basically excuse a woman for telling her husband that he is too small because she is being "honest" when it is not necessary and hurtful. So yes I feel that you have a bias.

You think that fornication is markedly better, Spiritually, than adultery?
Actually yes I do. So does the law and even most churches. To be technical most churches would consider people who are already "living in sin" to be in different place than married with children.

Sure it is his choice, but why interfere in another woman's relationship? Why distract a man from his commitment, from doing what is right, toward the other woman? Why not find a man unencumbered with the commitment to another woman?
Why do I think YOU are hard on me? because you acknowledge (somewhat) that HE is the one who may (or may not) have made a commitment (and from your other comments I guess I can't trust anything he says) but make me responsible for knowing whether I am interfering and for HIS actions. But then when I am trying to find out what is happening you criticized me for "analyze the living hell out of the situation" . I think that my questions would have been what you would have wanted me to do (and are likely what made him rethink), but then you criticize me for asking them? SO um - yeah - I assume that someone cheated on you and you blamed the stranger not the guy in the relationship with you (and seem to be projecting on me.)

I really think if you'd ever loved someone, been in a real relationship or felt love and commitment with another person, you wouldn't take so lightly your disregard for this woman and what relationship she has with this man.
Ouch - way to pour salt in a wound. I've said that I have never been fortunate to be in a committed relationship - so now I am not only supposed to deal with my own lack of luck at love (and sex) but now I have to be responsible for a woman who I never seen, never met and wasn't sure she even existed (but if she did, she wasn't willing to lift a finger to meet a BF basic needs.) So I am now responsible for someone else's sex life when I don't even have one myself! (That is a tall order) The posts which seem to be telling me that I will get hurt seem a hell of a lot more supportive than yours which seem to be intended to make me feel guilt and responsible for everyone else's relationships.

You can convince yourself that you're without fault, if you choose but you will likely be the one left hurting, as is often the case.
I was going "merrily" (not) on my way and thought that I was going to finally (for the first time) have some fun and this guy was the first to awaken my sexual feelings and now apparently I have to feel guilt for what I haven't even done. (Now I have to feel guilt (at fault) for other people's actions - because da-- I haven't even touched or been touched by this guy but you are trying to make me feel like I deserve a scarlet A (or F) on my forehead - when I wanted to make sure that there were no kids and no spouse to be hurt. (BTW at first a couple of friends told stories (including a movie) about guys who claim to have GF's as a way to try to avoid new women getting attached. Several times she was supposed to show up at places where we would both be and she never showed, so for all I knew she didn't really exist and was his way of protecting himself.)

Better yourself and something better will show up
Better myself? - Because I am bad? over 50 y.o. virgin who never has been involved with anyone married or "in a relationship". And yes after so many years I am still supposed to "wait" for "prince charming" who has no baggage who is kind and intelligent and a match and we both want each other. The last one (of the very few I have even been seriously attracted to) we clicked in conversation, similar interests, intellects, careers, etc. while he is with a skinny serial marrying "beauty" who he has nothing in common with who hangs all over him when we talk. (Nothing was ever going to happen and she knew it.) Dang I think am sounding bitter here - when I was finally feeling desirable.
(I intellectually know better - but some people would go to psychologically tying feeling sexual with guilt at this point)

[Justice]

I apologize that I misread something and commented in an earlier reply post

. . .
It doesn't sound like you are really that interested in purely casual sex, though you've put up a brave front to this guy because you so desparately want to convince him that you're cool; you're "down" with it. If you wanted the purely casual sex he's insisting upon, you don't need to nurture a complicated internet relationship to find it; we women can go out and score quick casual sex without even batting an eye. You've put a lot of time into this guy, and now you are clearly invested with him--it's obvious by your emotion-filled, urgent posts on this forum. You wouldn't even be here asking questions if you were still at that "casual" stage. Be honest with yourself about the extent of your feelings for him and don't just reflexively tell yourself that you're just being casual, and let your eyes open up to the fact that he's pulled away and isn't really worth the energy to win back anyways.

I replied as though you were saying I wanted casual sex - when in rereading your post you were not.

But it was not in any way to convince him that i am "cool" and he is the one who said FWB, After a lot of thought I said yes to FWB - but that I needed the Friends part before the benefits.

there may be some other feelings but the biggest one is a great deal of sexual frustration.

But yes I know I have to try to let it go - it just is hard.

[Stillness]

Not too often that I hear of a guy propositioning a woman and when she said Yes - then HE says no. Now THAT feels like a new level of rejection.

I really think that you and some of the other ladies are overstating the ease at which women can get sex and underestimating how picky men can be. Sure there are some dogs, but they come in both genders. Yeah you can stumble across a desperate, drunk guy at a bar right before closing time. But a man worth his salt can be as selective as any woman. That’s why rejection is human, not restricted to either gender. It doesn’t diminish your worth. It just means that for whatever reason, that person doesn’t want you. Join the club.

And just my two cents, I think that unless there is a commitment of some sort, like marriage or an engagement, there’s nothing immoral about going after someone in a relationship. Deceiving another person or knowingly participating in deceiving them is dirty, though. And adultery is much worse than fornication. But meth is probably worse than crack. That doesn’t mean that crack is a good choice.

[DreamP346]

Justine,

You have been given some good advice, but I notice that each time the advice is not what you want to hear, you disagree with it. I don't think people are judging, they are trying to give you good advice. When atskitty says "better yourself" the implication is not that you are bad, it's about bettering ourselves, which as human beings we are constantly striving to do. Although these anonymous forums can be a great venue to ask personal questions, the tone of the message can be easily misinterpreted and I think the folks who have given advice so far are not saying it is malicious intent.

To summarize, here are the facts as I understand it.

This man is attempting to cheat on his partner.
It is not clear whether he is officially married to her, but he is emotionally bound to her.
He is not trustworthy and I would add he is not worthy of YOUR trust or affections.
FWB has nothing to do with friendship. What you describe wanting is a true relationship - sex as well and emotional companionship. FWB is a relationship where you engage in casual sex with a partner that you know. There is no commitment (you can both see other people), there is not emotional bond that a sexual relationship can bring, you may or may not be friends but the friendship is not based on the sexual relationship.

In regards to this man pulling back now, it is not too strange. Some people get off on the chase. They intentionally chase people that are not attainable. But then the situation lends to an actual relationship, the appeal is gone. Also, he may just be scared of cheating on his partner. Talking about it is one thing, but actually acting on it is another. Maybe the girlfriend is getting suspicious.

So here are the questions to you (I am not judging, I am asking you to ask these to yourself):
Are you OK being the other woman in a relationship where the primary partner does not approve of an open relationship?
Are you OK being in a sexual relationship that does not guarantee an emotional relationship - you hook up for sex, maybe exchange a few text messages, but there is no guarantee you will have a real friendship?
Are you comfortable risking breaking up another relationship, whether it is bad or not?
Are you ready to be judged by society? And society will judge both you and this man regardless of the cause. If he were to leave his current relationship and start one with you, society doesn't really care as much. If you notice, in other post where men are in sexless relationships, people suggest they leave, not cheat.
Is this relationship with this man so important that you are willing to hang around in limbo, obsessing about him (looking up marriage records and such does feel obsessive) just for the remote possibility that something will happen worth it?

Ask yourself these questions. maybe you will find the answer you are looking for.

[atskitty2]

I'm not going to defend my other posts and comments to you. I know that I'm not inconsistent or biased, and those comments had nothing to do with your situation. You take them out of context a bit, but I'm not here to explain those meanings.

I apologize that my opinions and thoughts were hurtful for you and that you feel projected upon, and the need to defend yourself, as I'm being hard on you. They are my opinions on YOUR situation as you've presented it, nothing more. They're not intended to do more than answer your many questions, offer a new perspective and guidance. It is yours or anyone else's choice to agree or not, heed advice or not, or give opinions here validity.
I will leave you alone and wish you best of luck.

[Justice]

I really think that you and some of the other ladies are overstating the ease at which women can get sex and underestimating how picky men can be. Sure there are some dogs, but they come in both genders. Yeah you can stumble across a desperate, drunk guy at a bar right before closing time. But a man worth his salt can be as selective as any woman. That’s why rejection is human, not restricted to either gender. It doesn’t diminish your worth. It just means that for whatever reason, that person doesn’t want you. Join the club.

And just my two cents, I think that unless there is a commitment of some sort, like marriage or an engagement, there’s nothing immoral about going after someone in a relationship. Deceiving another person or knowingly participating in deceiving them is dirty, though. And adultery is much worse than fornication. But meth is probably worse than crack. That doesn’t mean that crack is a good choice.

Just to comment on the first point - "I really think that you and some of the other ladies are overstating the ease at which women can get sex and underestimating how picky men can be".

I agree that some of the other ladies are, but I am not. Yes there are some guys who just want a woman, any woman - just like there may be some women like that. I am obviously not one of them and I don't think the guy in this story is either. Since you included a quote from me, I would think that in context it would be clear that I was addressing my particular circumstances and the communication between us.... when the guy spent the time to seduce me and then when I was (finally) saying yes he then rejected me. I don't want to be with "just any guy" and I know that there a plenty - likely most if not almost all men to don't want to be with just any woman. I agree that the other ladies were overstating the ease at which women can get sex ... "just go find another guy" and it definitely was not random sex that I (ever) wanted .

[Justice]

Justine,

You have been given some good advice, but I notice that each time the advice is not what you want to hear, you disagree with it.

Sorry I don't believe that I was disagreeing with the advice as much as if the statement was listed as a fact and was incorrect, I was trying to address the error. Yes the advice is hard to take but in general I believe it is meant to be constructive. I


To summarize, here are the facts as I understand it.

This man is attempting to cheat on his partner.
At first I was not clear and I do not know what they have discussed. For example, it is not unheard of for a partner to tell their SO to go find someone else to fool around with (when they have no interest), but spare me the details; so the one would not want to hurt their SO with details.

It is not clear whether he is officially married to her, but he is emotionally bound to her.
Apparently - earlier it sounded like convenience. Only more recent info made this clear to me.

He is not trustworthy and I would add he is not worthy of YOUR trust or affections.
I am finally getting this.


FWB has nothing to do with friendship. What you describe wanting is a true relationship - sex as well and emotional companionship. FWB is a relationship where you engage in casual sex with a partner that you know. There is no commitment (you can both see other people), there is not emotional bond that a sexual relationship can bring, you may or may not be friends but the friendship is not based on the sexual relationship.
With so little experience, I guess I didn't really understand FWB - though I heard various differing opinions. I thought of it as an affair without the typical "where are we going" or the goal to be a permanent "couple" - planning to get to marriage. So I didn't consider it "casual" in my mind - I thought of it as being friends then having sex with your friend.


In regards to this man pulling back now, it is not too strange. Some people get off on the chase. They intentionally chase people that are not attainable. But then the situation lends to an actual relationship, the appeal is gone. Also, he may just be scared of cheating on his partner. Talking about it is one thing, but actually acting on it is another. Maybe the girlfriend is getting suspicious.
I agree but still annoyed, since I was willing to play in the fantasy realm - but I guess acknowledging it might kill some of the thrill. Let me restate that, I WAS willing to play in that realm had I known that was what he was doing. But I didn't and since I am single and unattached, I wasn't expecting to be left so sexually frustrated.

So here are the questions to you (I am not judging, I am asking you to ask these to yourself):
Are you OK being the other woman in a relationship where the primary partner does not approve of an open relationship?
Are you OK being in a sexual relationship that does not guarantee an emotional relationship - you hook up for sex, maybe exchange a few text messages, but there is no guarantee you will have a real friendship?
Are you comfortable risking breaking up another relationship, whether it is bad or not?
Are you ready to be judged by society? And society will judge both you and this man regardless of the cause. If he were to leave his current relationship and start one with you, society doesn't really care as much. If you notice, in other post where men are in sexless relationships, people suggest they leave, not cheat.
Is this relationship with this man so important that you are willing to hang around in limbo, obsessing about him (looking up marriage records and such does feel obsessive) just for the remote possibility that something will happen worth it?

Ask yourself these questions. maybe you will find the answer you are looking for.

Funny I asked some of these type of questions to him. Because he told me (rather early on) how a family member who had been married and now divorced was estranged from the rest of the family because of his new GF. I asked whether this would be a concern for him and he dismissed it as being totally different; so this is one of the many reasons I didn't realize how serious his other relationship might be ( and may be a contributing factor to how my questions and trying to not break up a marriage or family may have contributed to him changing his mind)

Honestly on my side I don't know. Of course I would not want to break up a family nor have it happen to me, BUT, I have always thought that the responsibility of maintaining a relationship between 2 people falls to those 2 people, not outsiders. I have always hated when people forgive the person who supposedly made the commitment to them and turn homicidal to the other (wo)man. Now to me, THAT is who/what should be judged not the other party who has no first hand knowledge of the intimate details of others relationships. We have plenty of postings here about people who are interested or involved with third parties; almost everyone in my circle are married people with very few divorces and 2 guys who cheated on their spouses. So unless I personally knew of their agreements, the main person I feel responsible for is myself. (i mentioned one guy who would have been a great match and we get along to well but I KNOW he is "taken" and off-limits, so like (I think it was) "stillness"(?) posted I know to not even consider thinking about him in that way.)

Re the obsessing - I admit that I get that way when I am this interested in a guy (and not able to bury myself in something else to distract) but it takes time for it to get better. Trust me I would like nothing better than to get over this. It is distracting and time-consuming and as I've posted I was doing just fine before (not great but better than now). Knowing and feeling can be 2 different things.

I do appreciate the responses (honestly, except the one who make me feel like a w-hore for finally even considering having a sexual relationship with an unmarried man with no children in the picture). Criminy, even my priest didn't try to make me feel like a w-hore when I confessed.

But I am still curious - is there a good way to find out if someone is married (other than just trusting that they tell you the truth?). This is not just for me, I have tried to help other single women friends check and I can usually get a lot of info, but am not sure on this.

[Stillness]

the guy spent the time to seduce me and then when I was (finally) saying yes he then rejected me.

I'm saying that this is not the historic rejection you're making it out to be. I think the others have given good reasons why this could have happened. It's just not that unusual of a situation. Men pursue women on a regular basis and drop the pursuit when they're satisfied - it could be just making an emotional connection, getting a number, getting a date, going on a date, or getting her in bed. In whatever case, the romantic interest is not deep, so it's easy to let it go once you have what you want. I'm ashamed of it, but I've done it. Women do it too, it's just in different ways because the gender roles are such that the man is typically the initial pursuer.

It doesn't call for you being hard on yourself. You should stop obsessing over it and search for something better or just be content alone.