[jen1447]

Female led relationship. The term is oftentimes associated with a kink/fetish behavior where women dominate and subjugate men, but the basic context is actually just a relationship where the woman wears the pants.

[rcoreyus]

Part of the problem is that people want different things, so there is absolutely no one-size-fits-all on how to behave.

Then both men and women make the mistake of wanting their partner to "be in control" in some situation, but by "in control", they really mean "insist on doing what **I** want to do". This is especially difficult when "what I want to do" is not at all obvious to your partner. This is most obviously a problem in sex because many people are embarrassed to ask for what they want, and many of the things that someone may want, may not be something their partner wants to do.

[atskitty2]

"Over-niceness is definitely not the problem. I could, and probably should do more; in fact, she has said so herself."
Of course she says you should be doing MORE...but that doesn't mean you weren't doing enough/too much already...

[atskitty2]

I think we miss the point if you want to get into why women love bad boys...why men love *****es...but, sure...I'd love to hash that one out with y'all in another thread because I love me some bad boys too, and I'm puzzled why men don't like my soft/sweet/nurturing side...but if I turn to cruel words, they're begging for more...

But we're trying to help jondoe here...and the bottom line of my suggestion above is that it's an overall attitude, not that he gets flowers or brings her coffee, and treats her well...does she ASK for any of that? Does he even know that she REALLY enjoys that demonstration of love? Obviously she doesn't appreciate it, and he asks for nothing & expects nothing in return, it seems to me? The point is that it's all one-sided...someone above mentioned givers/takers, and this is that same concept. Doesn't mean that he should say, "ok hon, I brought you coffee, now you gotta rub my feet"...but there's an issue of self-respect that comes into play when you bend over backward to please someone - even your wife or husband - and they give nothing in return, yet you continue to do more & more to win their affection (touched on by rcoreyus' A & B comment above). And over the years, this has escalated & turned into a 0-10 ball game for jondoe, but they're really both the losers...
And, then throw in whatever other components of error in their relationship, as I'm sure this isn't the only dysfunctional area. But where there's no respect for each other, no respect for YOURSELVES, there's really no winner. To me, doesn't sound like she has a lot of self-respect either, quite honestly.

But the fact that she's a taker doesn't mean she can't learn to compromise & give a little. She may need a little reality check & it will undoubtedly take some work, and my hunch is it will take losing this relationship to bring her around.
I'm a strong believer that sometimes we must insist on higher standards from those around us, and that helps them be better in the relationship & be a better person in general usually too...this attitude probably permeates her work life, & her relationships with friends & others too...
It's similar to saying to an addict, "you cannot continue to be a part of my life if you behave this way"...obviously it's a much different thing, but it's conceptually along the same lines...

I'm very curious Jon, if she knows you share things on this forum, and if she's ever been invited to join us?

[jen1447]

^ kitty FTW.

[jns]

I'm very curious Jon, if she knows you share things on this forum, and if she's ever been invited to join us?

It takes a special person to take in a conversation about them without getting defensive to the point of missing the whole picture.

[atskitty2]

An open and honest dialogue between them is what I'm getting at jns, and maybe she'd be more likely to open up to strangers. He should be as comfy saying things to her, as he is to strangers on a forum I guess?
It could be that she wouldn't want to join, if Jon even wanted her to, but they're back in counseling so there should be nothing here that is news to her, right? Except our opinions...and we're all just trying to help...

[atskitty2]

Uh-oh Jen...ftw? That wasn't quite the vibe I had with that very long post

[jen1447]

lol, "for the win" ....I just realized that's backwards acronym for "what the f---"

And yes it was awesomely long and meaningful and succinct. (Actually it wasn't that long.)

[JonDoe]

But we're trying to help jondoe here...

Thanks, I genuinely appreciate it.

...and the bottom line of my suggestion above is that it's an overall attitude, not that he gets flowers or brings her coffee, and treats her well...does she ASK for any of that? Does he even know that she REALLY enjoys that demonstration of love? Obviously she doesn't appreciate it, and he asks for nothing & expects nothing in return, it seems to me? The point is that it's all one-sided...someone above mentioned givers/takers, and this is that same concept. Doesn't mean that he should say, "ok hon, I brought you coffee, now you gotta rub my feet"...but there's an issue of self-respect that comes into play when you bend over backward to please someone - even your wife or husband - and they give nothing in return, yet you continue to do more & more to win their affection (touched on by rcoreyus' A & B comment above). And over the years, this has escalated & turned into a 0-10 ball game for jondoe, but they're really both the losers...
And, then throw in whatever other components of error in their relationship, as I'm sure this isn't the only dysfunctional area.

She does appreciate the occasional coffee, flowers and other acts of kindness. She does at times ask for more of it too. I do ask and expect for something in return. We have very traditional roles, but we both have jobs. She cooks, shops, does laundry, and provides a small portion of the income. I provide the vast majority of our income, which requires at least 50% more of my time. I pay people to clean the house and take care of the yard work. I do everything that requires installation and maintenance, and also pitch in where it helps to achieve a balance.

Acts of kindness are her primary love language so she is much more inclined to speak her love language than mine, which is physical touch. So when she is if feeling appreciative of my efforts she will generally buy or make a snack, which also benefits the children, in fact she is doing it right now. Physical touch is her least important love language, which she is also least likely to do.

But where there's no respect for each other, no respect for YOURSELVES, there's really no winner. To me, doesn't sound like she has a lot of self-respect either, quite honestly.

This is a huge and incorrect assumption. I appreciate you thinking about all possibilities, but our relationship doesn't suffer from "NO respect for ourselves and for each other."

But the fact that she's a taker doesn't mean she can't learn to compromise & give a little. She may need a little reality check & it will undoubtedly take some work, and my hunch is it will take losing this relationship to bring her around.
I'm a strong believer that sometimes we must insist on higher standards from those around us, and that helps them be better in the relationship & be a better person in general usually too...this attitude probably permeates her work life, & her relationships with friends & others too...
It's similar to saying to an addict, "you cannot continue to be a part of my life if you behave this way"...obviously it's a much different thing, but it's conceptually along the same lines...

She does not have similar issues in other relationships. She is very much loved and respected by her friends and colleagues alike. She also ranks at the top of her peers at work at annual review time.

Our relationship issues primarily stem from her being dismissive of my feelings and a lack of physical intimacy, which over a period of time makes me resentful and then I gradually stop engaging, which only makes matters worse. There is also a communication breakdown when we try to discuss related topics, resolve related conflicts and make a healthy comprise. It is truly no more complicated than that.

She has said before that our marriage would be "close to perfect" (within reasonable limits and expectations) if we didn't argue about sex. She enjoys sex very much, but it just isn't important to her.

I'm very curious Jon, if she knows you share things on this forum, and if she's ever been invited to join us?

No, she doesn't know I share on this forum, I have not invited her to join us, nor do I ever plan to.