[Stillness]

This man needs some good loving. His woman is withholding it. It's not just about a lack of intimacy. He's throwing everything he can think of at the problem and getting no traction. It's frustrating.

It's like your best friend having a big loaf of hot bread while you're starving. You keep begging her to share, but she won't. The problem is not just your lack of bread. It's that your friend is not being what she's supposed to be. It makes for a bitter soul.

[Lady Syrinx]

Intimacy demonstrated through sex right? Because there's intimacy elsewhere.

I think in my lecture series here, I've made it pretty clear that I think its about way more than sex.
I don't know what the root problem is, but I agree there's intimacy lacking, and not just in sexual expression.

Part of the problem may be societal as well. I think women are taught to see two types of intimacy in a marriage, sexual intimacy and general intimacy. The idea that sex will become less and less important as a marriage goes on because you have built up (general ) intimacy. In reality intimacy is intimacy, whether sexual or not. I don't listen to Dr. Laura very often but one her catchphrases applies ,"Be your husband's girlfriend." It sounds like he Jon is still his wife's boyfriend, doing the little things like getting her coffee, etc. She doesn't reciprocate by being his girlfriend. Men are are told to initiate outside the bedroom by doing the little things. I think women are taught that initiating is only done in the bedroom. For instance, I think the biggest come on I've ever given was telling him that I like "dressing for him" aka sexy when we go out.

[JonDoe]

"Be your husband's girlfriend." It sounds like Jon is still his wife's boyfriend, doing the little things like getting her coffee, etc. She doesn't reciprocate by being his girlfriend.

So true!

[Trixareforkids]

That said, giving her a kiss and tells her I love you even when there's a disagreement is a good advice. It's difficult I should admit, and emotionally I do have resistance. But I'll try, at least start from some easier things like hugs.

This is one of the nicest things I've yet seen on the forum. I hope you've been able to put it into practice.

[Trixareforkids]

So, it sounds like what we're hearing is that it's good to get flowers for her sometimes. But every once in a while, out of the blue, when she's walking by you need to trip her. Let her know you're a little bit of a jerk. Keep her on her toes...figuratively, because literally she will be on the floor wondering what is wrong with you, confused, yet aroused.

This just cracked me up. It falls into my "wrong but funny" humor category.

[Trixareforkids]

Sorry about how long winded this is everyone, but I'm late to the party and I'm representing the "opposing" side which I felt was very under-represented in this thread.

Jon, I've read every post on this tread, looking, hoping, to see if a low-libido person would chime in with forthcoming response from the other side of the issue. Since I didn't see that I'm going to chime in.

I'll start by saying that my libido is manic-depressive (not me mind you, but my libido - though I do have small bouts of depression). A roller coaster is a very accurate analogy because it will slowly tick-tick-tick up to a peak and then suddenly disappear into a valley. All's well when it's on the up swing, but once it disappears it's REALLY gone. I have NO thoughts of sex and when I get the occasional physical knock knock, if the hubby isn't right there or it isn't an appropriate time/place, it's gone, usually in minutes. I have tried (REALLY REALLY hard) to maintain it to no avail. I read erotica, surfed porn, tried to maintain a fantasy, any and everything I could think of to try to get to a point when hubby was home or the time was appropriate, but not more than a couple of times was I able to do it. And after our daughter was born and co-sleeping with us (she still does by the way), then his mother moved in, followed by my mother, then his mother moved out (so we at least have place to sneak off to again) and there's always 3 or 4 people and 10s of things to do, without the libido to help me push past all the minutia it just didn't happen much.

Libido is physiological AND psychological for me (and I believe most women) but the physiological always has to come first and when it's absent. Saying someone just needs more initiative to improve it, to me says that person has never suffered from a serious or long-term lack of it. JUST DO IT, just doesn't work. Maybe someone who's libido was low or absent for purely psychological reasons could do that, but I even doubt that because if you had it and you lost it for psychological reasons, those reasons will most likely have something to do with the relationship and won't be fixed until and unless whatever has happened in the relationship is fixed.



why is it that so many couples suffer from this form of sexual inequality? Is it selfishness, cluelessness, gender role bias, low-libido or something else entirely? Honestly, I wish I knew since I have suffered from this form of sexual inequality for more than twenty years and counting. As others can also attest, this type of routine, long-term rejection can be devastating. It can significantly impacts one's confidence and self-esteem. It is emotional abuse, regardless of the other partner's intentions.

Personally, I don't think low-libido by itself is a sufficient reason for this sexual inequality. If one partner has a low-libido, then perhaps she may not initiate as much as the high-desire spouse, but never initiating is lazy, irresponsible and unacceptable. He may have a low-desire to do household chores, but that is certainly no excuse for him not being involved and committed to the relationship. While I realize that low-desire is real, I also think it is used as an excuse far too often in modern society.

Does your relationship suffer from sexual inequality? Are you in it to win it?

In it to win it? That says, I think, a lot about your attitude and personality type. That with many of your other comments has given me a picture of you. In my picture you are a go-getter, put a job or goal in front of you and you don't just meet it head on, you go after it, you conquer it, and if you are NOT able to conquer it the first run through, you keep at it until you do, you will not be bested by anything that you think you can should be able to accomplish.

Now put that personality up against a vulnerable one (even if it's only vulnerable in this one area). Your “goal” is for more physical intimacy, and from the sounds of it, though not completely, that mostly means sex to you. So you are goal oriented (henceforth GO) you do everything you can think of to achieve that goal (no sinister intent is implied here, just the pure determination) the vulnerable one (henceforth TVO) can feel that and is probably a bit intimidated by it, knowing that it's just not something that they feel they have the capacity for at the moment. They begin to feel that you are more worried about your physical need than their emotional vulnerability and feel some resentment.

I'll give you a scenario to describe it:
Two good long-time friends who have always thought the other was attractive but cared more about the friendship than pursuing a possible romance. One day something changes and A decides to approach B about taking the friendship further. B tells A that though they do find the other attractive they aren't emotionally in a place where they want to risk a certain friendship for a possible romance. That's not a straight no and they get along so well that A tries again and is again with affection basically told no. A thinks about it in this way, we get along so well I really feel we'd have it all if we moved it to a romantic relationship, I just need to convince A, so I'll try one more time. B meanwhile is thinking, maybe it's not a terrible idea, maybe it would work, I'm just still not ready to try yet, but the second I am, boy won't that be exciting. So A approaches B again and B feeling pressured, despite their recent thought of maybe, this time just says no, it's not going to happen, please just stop asking. The friendship lingers for a while but eventually fades.

Marriage is a friendship with benefits and extra chores/responsibilities, but it's also a commitment you made to stick through the good and bad times, so while both see this as a bad time, if TVO isn't given unpressured time to try to figure out why their libido has disappeared (hormones/BC are likely candidates and various other meds) and attempt to reverse it (and this makes a BIG assumption that the initial appearance of libido in the relationship wasn't just juiced up new relationship hormones) the pressure applied by the GO now pushes it over into the psychological realm as well as the physical one. With both of the Ps working against you, some resentment building up, plus guilt, because there's ALWAYS guilt when you know you're not meeting your loved one's needs, TVO turns inward. Maybe this inward turning helps them get past the psych part or maybe it makes them feel things bigger than resentment, like neglect – GO is SO worried about what they want that they can't see me struggling here, can't see that I'm missing my libido too and feeling guilty for something I had no control over, they're so wrapped up in themselves they don't care about me. That can then turn into a reciprocation of neglect. And that is how low libido is felt from the other side. From that point on, unless GO can convey a sincere concern for TVOs feelings, which would have to include something along the lines of “you know I want you and always will, so I'll do my best to give you all the time you need to work through this. That's not to say that I won't still get hot for you and ask on occasion, but I know it's not me so I won't get my feelings hurt if you're not ready yet.” And then actually understanding that it totally ISN'T about you and will stay that way unless you make it about you at which point the round-robin resentment will just begin again. If it's about physical intimacy, touching, cuddling, then you need to do those things without pressing for sex (though they could possibly lead to sex if you don't press) and should your desire become obvious just tell her to ignore it, it's a natural reaction to a beautiful woman, not a statement of your intent. When you have reached a point that it's really about the actual sex and your need for it, you have to say it lovingly. “Sweetheart I love you and think you're beautiful, but I really can't abstain for this long without feeling unloved as well as through the roof horny.”

This does not fix your sexual inequality, it leaves the door open for her to do or not do as she pleases, I recognize those things, what it does do is make it possible for her dig herself out, at which time she will be joyous and will share that joy, often. You say this isn't fair, that she needs to think about your needs as well and that is true as far as she is able, which when you have little or no libido isn't very far I know but your refusal to recognize that, is as much the problem as her libido. You cannot make yourself feel desire where it doesn't exist, she's not denying you something that she has to give, it's doesn't exist, there is little or nothing to give. When you feel that way and are berated (however gently) for it, it feels like bullying, like you're that kid in school who gets pushed around for your money AFTER lunch, they know you don't have it so why, other than just pure spite, are they repeatedly demanding it, do they expect you to starve every day to give it to them? And every day you have that stress of picking which one it'll be, go hungry or get pushed around. One day you're not actually hungry so you just hand over the money and try to keep walking, but then they push you around and say, is that all you've got?

You say you've reached your limit and can't stand to even look at her any more. Really? It's very sad, that you have pushed yourself to this point. You think 'I've done everything I can, I stuck it out for my kids and this lazy selfish so-and-so and now I'm going to go get mine', and you take NO responsibility for her being so withdraw about sex and her lack of libido when it sounds from all you've said that what you've done is continually, relentlessly pushed on a pull door.

The simple fact is that she is only interested in sex when she is already in the mood, which is rarely.
Yeah, that's what a low libido is.

She is lazy because she does not take any initiate to improve our relationship when it comes to physical or emotional intimacy.
Push to long on a pull door and you'll jam it.

She is selfish because she only concerns herself with her own pleasure. Telling me that she doesn't like to give a BJ simply because it does nothing for her and she lacks the experience is a complete and total cop-out.
It is a bit selfish, but it doesn't seem so in the moment. She's actually got enough libido for sex, asking for something, being given an honest reply and then resenting her for her honesty because it's not what you wanted to hear, sounds like there's selfishness on all sides. Another round-robin of resentment.

Low-libido is a personal preference, not a disability, but for some it is also an excuse. Why do so many people try to make it out to be something more?
You've got to be kidding me with the personal preference thing? So you only have a normal/high libido because you CHOOSE to, if that's the case couldn't you solve the problem by choosing to match yours to hers? And no, it's not a disability, but it can be emotionally disabling when handled badly.


I think low-desire stems mostly from a lack of initiative. Many people are this way with exercise; while they enjoy the outcome and may even enjoy the activity once they get started, they will put it off and make excuses to avoid getting started. In this way, sex is like exercise for many people with a low-desire for sex. As the Nike slogan says "Just do it!"
This is a naturally skinny kid telling a naturally large kid to quit being fat. Ignorant and mean spirited.


Another reason for some is out-of-sight out-of-mind attitude. They simply do not think about sex very often. One might say it is the responsibility of the high-desire spouse to get the low-desire spouse thinking about physical intimacy, but I think both partners should have a vested interest in the relationship and the needs, wants and desires of their partner.
I already talked about “thinking about it”...

I'm curious, in what way do you find it different than the exercise analogy that I described?
Directed at someone else but since I agree with them I'll answer too.

Ok, let's use your exercise analogy, most people who are out of shape think they can get back into shape with just a little work, but if other things get in the way, well there's always time, then one day holy crao, ok, now I'm really out of shape, where do I even begin? They take the time and energy to find the motivation, they go at it, maybe lose a few pounds, but again either life interrupts or they lose their motivation or they fall of the wagon and feel guilty which just makes things worse and makes it harder to find the motivation to try again. They like eating what tastes good, they were happy enough weren't they, this trying and failing feels worse than just accepting what they are. Yeah, a few people who've gone to fat find their way back to a healthy life style, but let's face it, most do not, most learn instead to accept themselves in order to be happy, and they are happy as long as their shape isn't constantly being hurled at them as an insult or an affront, and for those that never were “in-shape” to begin with well it just feels like going after a goal they'll never reach. A rare few make it but most don't.

Now, let's contemplate the levels of libido.
Someone with no sex drive: (This is a naturally trim and fit person, there's no reason to exercise.) This person don't have and don't feel the lack of it. Of course the one celibate I knew stayed away from romantic relationships because he said it was just heartache waiting to happen. Since he didn't want sex he maintained close relationships with friends, and one of whom was a snuggler so he got the little bit of physical contact the did crave while they curled up to watch TV or a movie.

Someone with a naturally low libido: (They're on the thin side, but may from time to time feel they could be thinner, is willing to go to the gym occasionally to feel they're making that effort.) They occasionally enjoy sex but if not presented with, can fairly easily live. While in a romantic relationship could be satisfied with mostly non-sexual physical contact but thoroughly enjoys the occasional romp. May shift into temporary libido overdrive (bringing them up to normal) at the start of a relationship when the odd spike happens. Again, no need to exercise as they've never felt their drive was out of whack, except maybe when it spikes and they are possibly embarrassed by what may (to them) feel like brief periods of wantonness.

Someone with a normal libido: (This person started out as a thin person, but has had a sudden unexplained weight gain. GYM, are you kidding, I need to figure out WTH is happening here.) If they hit a snag they can ride it out a while and hope it fixes itself, especially if there's a lot of demands on their time. If they start to feel (or outside pressure makes them feel) the lack, you start with the doctor, is there a physical reason? If there are no obvious physical reasons it's time to do some self-searching, is there a mental reason? Depression? Anxiety? If so then how to treat, counseling or medication? If you go for medication you have to watch to be sure it doesn't actually worsen because a lot of anti-depressants have that effect. While this is happening, do you have a partner who is supporting you or pressuring you to hurry the heck up and get better already? If it's the former you'll work harder, try more things until you find something, if it's the later you may give up, because like exercise if the motivation isn't at least mostly internal and for your OWN betterment it quickly disappears.

Someone with a naturally high libido: (Fitness nut, would redouble their efforts at the 1st sign of a problem.) This person would immediately notice a lack, they are used to being ready to go and loved the feeling and will do everything in their power to get back to where they were. They would also be especially resentful of any harsh criticism however, because they KNOW something is wrong and they also know it's not by choice.

For the sake of discussion, let's put the "being pressured into" aside for a moment, and let's use "taking the initiative" instead of "forcing yourself".

Ok, now, let's put the the being pressured and forcing yourself back in, the only reason to take them out is that they're kind of distasteful in this setting aren't they. And that's exactly what they feel like to the person struggling with a libido issue.

I have a desire to be physically fit and a desire to please my partner sexually, and I gain enjoyment and pleasure from both in similar and different ways, which motivates me. Some people aren't motivated for either and that is their personal choice. As long as it doesn't affect me, I say to each their own, but when it does affect me then "Lucy, you have some esplainin to do!"
You can be however you are unless it doesn't suit me, would be another way of saying what you said here. Did your wife EVER exhibit a normal libido, and if so, for how long did it last because eve with all of your comments in this post I couldn't find an answer to that. You say you've been dealing with this for more than 20 years, when did it start, when was the change from normal to low? I believe if it had ever been high you would have mentioned that, but I can't even assume it was normal to begin with, from your comments I think it was always low and if that is actually the case, how is it fair to expect someone to be something they never claimed to be? To me it'd kinda be like marrying an average/kinda cute woman, then getting resentful when she wouldn't even consider plastic surgery to make her beautiful and on top of that being indignant that she didn't want to talk about her looks. Although she would every now and again, if you caught her in the right mood make an effort to doll herself up for you just because you asked, even though you resented her for all the days didn't.



What I am saying is that just because one partner has a low-desire for sex is not a license to routinely reject the other partner and hide behind the veil of having a low-libido not taking the initiative on behalf of their marriage. Many things in marriage require a compromise to make the marriage a long lasting and healthy relationship.
Yes, compromise is needed in all relationships. When you're starting from opposite side of the ladder one has to attempt to come up, while the other has to go down to join them. Always standing one rung higher and urging your partner to climb is not an attempt at compromise.


Sure, some low-libido spouses are also dealing with depression, anxiety, medication, repressed fears of past physical or emotional abuse, etc. However, many are not and are still not doing anything about it for the sake of their partner's happiness and the health of the relationship.

Again, low-libido is not a disability. Many low-libido spouses admit that they aren't in the mood to have sex very often, but when they have sex and things get heated up they actually enjoy it. For these people, why continue making excuses instead of taking the initiative? Just do it!
THEY AREN'T MAKING EXCUSES & THEY ARE DOING IT. Just not as much as the other partner would like. Having good sex and saying we should do this more often, is generally a heartfelt statement, so why doesn't it happen more often? Do you make a regular diet of your favorite food? Well that's what it's like for someone with a lower libido, they think yum that was good, I could eat that more often, but they don't actually make it or go out to get it until the craving hits again. They don't want to deprive you, you could even eat it in front of them and it wouldn't bother them although it might entice them to have a bite or two.

Something finally clicked for me this week, now I can't even stand to look at her anymore.
That's a bit viscous, but then so is this possible translation of it. You've finally worked yourself up to the point that you can dismiss all the good parts of the relationship, you were the good guy, you provided well, were the dad who stuck around despite his selfish, lazy, frigid wife for the sake of the kids and now they're grown or almost and SHE refuses to change so you're off to enjoy yourself and it's all her fault because you tried to get her to change and she just wouldn't do it.


I know what you've laid down and what I've responded to is not the whole story, probably not even a very good picture of it, and that you're most likely just here venting, while still hoping for change. But what form of change are you hoping for? If she is and always has been loving in her own way but never or rarely has been physically affectionate why have you tortured yourself all these years over the lack? Someone who hasn't changed in 20 years either can't or doesn't want to. If it's really only about the need for physical affection and fulfillment, have you ever discussed an open relationship? If you love all the things about her except this one area that she's simply lacking in, then maybe she really wouldn't mind if you have that fulfilled elsewhere, especially if having it fulfilled stops the round-robin of resentment between the two of you and allows you to enjoy all the other parts of what you yourself said is an otherwise good and loving relationship.

I felt compelled to respond because you were not attacking/lamenting simply your wife, but a whole group of people, who I happen to be among depending on where on the roller coaster I happen to be. I'm not equating myself with your wife, but I do believe we are more similar than you and your wife are and that since she can't or won't talk about it I felt someone should to give you, and everyone else here, a bit of an insiders look. You made certain assumptions and drew conclusions that were not based on first hand experience, so I answered those with my own assumptions and conclusions. Both are a bit harsh and self-centered at times and as I'm sure you meant no disrespect, neither do I. I sincerely hope that you and your wife find a way to make your relationship work and barring that, that you do not go so far as to hate the sight of one another.

[jns]

Here is some background for JonDoe: https://www.womens-health.com/boards...-sex-lies.html I had to use search for this.

[Trixareforkids]

Well phooey, all my itals on his comments disappeared making my long winded post that much harder to read. Oh well...

[jen1447]

You know that's what the quote button's for - the little text balloon on the menu above? Such as

Well phooey, all my itals on his comments disappeared making my long winded post that much harder to read. Oh well...

[Trixareforkids]

You know that's what the quote button's for - the little text balloon on the menu above? Such as

Yes, I just didn't know how to pull the quotes from multiple posts. Plus I knew it was going to take me a while to reply and the system would log me out, so it seemed easier to copy and paste into word, then just copy and paste back.