[jen1447]

Well I had another chat with my friend last night, didn't go too well. She seemed to want to proceed like nothing had happened, so I reminded her that I needed to know where she stood. (The reason for this is that she tends to subtly re-introduce the negativity, not bring it right out front, and she actually did just that before very long.) It was a bit ugly, with pleading and denial, etc. She reminded me that it was my duty as a friend to back her up, which made me feel like crap. She manages to appeal to my protective nature so that I want to 'fix' everything for her, only obviously I can't (I can't really fix anything for anybody, that's just something people like me have to deal with - the desire to) and trying to probably just hurts her in the long run. Anyway she couldn't (or refused to) give me an answer, so now it's up in the air again. All I want from her is to agree not to give into the defeatist mentality. That doesn't mean to be immune to it, just not to seek it out herself with the "poor me/shutting it all down" stuff. I can be there to help her thru tough times, but I can't do it if she won't be there herself.

Anyway I do have a question for you ladies. She seems to be very poorly affected by this lack of success with a guy she likes at work. Now, I was devastated once by a failed romance (my first real one, when I was 18 or so), so I know that can lay you low, but she's not had a romance with this guy. They're hardly even friends. She would just like it if they were more - apparently very, very keenly. Is it legit to get that bent out of shape in that situation? I had an unrequited love drama in my younger years too, but it was with a guy I was actually almost involved with, and it went on for a long time during which I came to know the guy very well. That was difficult, but does the same thing potentially apply with someone who's closer to being a stranger? She seems genuinely devastated by it all - and "it all" is just that nothing has happened. There's been no outright rejection or cruelty or anything like that.

Anyway I'm concerned that I'm underplaying the significance of that. If she's genuinely tormented by it, it probably is pretty crappy for me not to want to indulge her pain.

[atskitty2]

It sounds like she has some issues with boundaries, and a little out of touch with reality.
Has she created, in her mind, some sort of thing with this coworker that doesn't exist? Or is it just that she's wanting it to happen so badly that she loses sight of what their relationship actually consists of?

I think she needs to learn to be OK with herself, by herself. She seems to have a lot of unhealthy habits where romance is concerned.

I don't know-you have all the details and i think you're astute enough to determine what the core of these issues are...I'm inclined to say, tell her! No holds barred just lay it out there. Gently of course, but get the cards on the table...
I'm tired...will read this again tomorrow-I've forgotten what else I wanted to say! Lol.

[Justice]

You always seem very supporting here so based on that and what else you have written here - especially about some of her choices it sounds like you have been handling this rather well.

The following part though makes me want to comment.

Anyway I do have a question for you ladies. She seems to be very poorly affected by this lack of success with a guy she likes at work. Now, I was devastated once by a failed romance (my first real one, when I was 18 or so), so I know that can lay you low, but she's not had a romance with this guy. They're hardly even friends. She would just like it if they were more - apparently very, very keenly. Is it legit to get that bent out of shape in that situation? I had an unrequited love drama in my younger years too, but it was with a guy I was actually almost involved with, and it went on for a long time during which I came to know the guy very well. That was difficult, but does the same thing potentially apply with someone who's closer to being a stranger? She seems genuinely devastated by it all - and "it all" is just that nothing has happened. There's been no outright rejection or cruelty or anything like that.

Anyway I'm concerned that I'm underplaying the significance of that. If she's genuinely tormented by it, it probably is pretty crappy for me not to want to indulge her pain.

In her case, has she ever been in a good healthy relationship? (it does not seem like it.) Because in the passage above - without the rest of the stories to give it context - I can feel empathy for her. I am kind of old to never have been "in love" and have had a few attractions that have been unrequited. (Though extremely confusing.) And I would guess that "it all" would seem like "almost nothing" to many - especially people who have been fortunate to either have a real and long term connection, or multiple successful relationships.

When you have not been lucky to have a good romantic/sexual relationship but are hopeful to, you can latch onto what you think are positive signs. (In some cases friends will even tell you that they agree that it looks like THIS one might go somewhere. )

There are folks who seem to have more than their share of depressing events/problems - so I am glad to hear when it is not an issue of avoiding a friend just because she has problems. It seems clear that this is NOT the situation with you, Jen. (I have seen it happen with other people.)

[jns]

She reminded me that it was my duty as a friend to back her up, which made me feel like crap.

The purpose of a friend is not to back someone at every turn. It is to back them when they have done the right thing and still got bad results. It is to consul them on a better way when they seem to be going down the wrong path. It is to share life experiences so both grow. It is to share simple kindness. It is definitely not to back their bad behavior. If you back their bad behavior, I have to ask if you really care bout them. I can see ignoring bad behavior while attempting to get them to increase their good behavior especially with the hope that the good behavior will squeeze out the bad behavior.

[jns]

Anyway I do have a question for you ladies. She seems to be very poorly affected by this lack of success with a guy she likes at work. Now, I was devastated once by a failed romance (my first real one, when I was 18 or so), so I know that can lay you low, but she's not had a romance with this guy. They're hardly even friends. She would just like it if they were more - apparently very, very keenly. Is it legit to get that bent out of shape in that situation? I had an unrequited love drama in my younger years too, but it was with a guy I was actually almost involved with, and it went on for a long time during which I came to know the guy very well. That was difficult, but does the same thing potentially apply with someone who's closer to being a stranger? She seems genuinely devastated by it all - and "it all" is just that nothing has happened. There's been no outright rejection or cruelty or anything like that.

I think most of us have had in mind a relationship we wish we had had. The classic unrequited love. Something that we were not bold enough to attempt for the reason that we did not want to be shot down, because being shot down would be painful and it would give finality to our fantasy. A situation where not knowing was better than having it destroyed. In her case, she seems to be so adverse to the possibility of having a bad result, she is not even trying to start a friendly conversation which could lead further.

The ultimate answer to inaction is action and acceptance of the results.

[jen1447]

Has she created, in her mind, some sort of thing with this coworker that doesn't exist? Or is it just that she's wanting it to happen so badly that she loses sight of what their relationship actually consists of?

Some of both, I'm pretty sure.

Thanks kitty, looking forward to your input.

In her case, has she ever been in a good healthy relationship?

I'm not sure she's ever been in a truly good one. I'm mainly familiar with her marriage, which lasted several years and was basically a disaster (featured all the typical abuser behavior - isolation, control, blame, idiotic suspicion of her 'cheating,' etc.). She did have relationships prior to that which were more garden variety. Nothing really inspirational sounding.

Because in the passage above - without the rest of the stories to give it context - I can feel empathy for her. I am kind of old to never have been "in love" and have had a few attractions that have been unrequited. (Though extremely confusing.) And I would guess that "it all" would seem like "almost nothing" to many - especially people who have been fortunate to either have a real and long term connection, or multiple successful relationships.

She's definitely not gone thru life solo, no.

When you have not been lucky to have a good romantic/sexual relationship but are hopeful to, you can latch onto what you think are positive signs. (In some cases friends will even tell you that they agree that it looks like THIS one might go somewhere. )

lol I've done that quite a bit myself, both to encourage her to be active that way and out of genuine interest or curiosity, because the situations she tells me about sound promising. I don't think she's imagining everything, tho she may be placing more significance on the things that do happen than is really there.

There are folks who seem to have more than their share of depressing events/problems - so I am glad to hear when it is not an issue of avoiding a friend just because she has problems. It seems clear that this is NOT the situation with you, Jen. (I have seen it happen with other people.)

Thanks ....yeah, I would not do that.

The purpose of a friend is not to back someone at every turn. It is to back them when they have done the right thing and still got bad results. It is to consul them on a better way when they seem to be going down the wrong path. It is to share life experiences so both grow. It is to share simple kindness. It is definitely not to back their bad behavior. If you back their bad behavior, I have to ask if you really care bout them. I can see ignoring bad behavior while attempting to get them to increase their good behavior especially with the hope that the good behavior will squeeze out the bad behavior.

The problem is, those lines are never so clear in practice as they are in theory. For example, is simple resignation that relationships are not worth the effort "bad behavior?" I've only been able to come to the conclusions I have about her based on lengthy interaction and knowing what makes her tick. Meaning that in her case, I know that to withdraw is not the answer because she needs to live outside of herself, not inside. If the question was "do I smoke crack or not?" then yeah, it would be an easy answer.

I think most of us have had in mind a relationship we wish we had had. The classic unrequited love. Something that we were not bold enough to attempt for the reason that we did not want to be shot down, because being shot down would be painful and it would give finality to our fantasy. A situation where not knowing was better than having it destroyed. In her case, she seems to be so adverse to the possibility of having a bad result, she is not even trying to start a friendly conversation which could lead further.

Well she has (some) conversations. She seems to be more inhibited by the fact that she feels it's this guy's duty to make a move on her, tho I do think she's also afraid to do it herself and not just a traditional values girl. Believe me, I've said many times "just ask him out for coffee" and tried to disempower a no answer ("the worst thing that can happen is he says no ....and so what?" etc.).

The ultimate answer to inaction is action and acceptance of the results.

Again, so much easier said than done. If she was squared away and secure and rational enough to be swayed by regular old logic, I wouldn't be here posting about this. Also jns - you know us women are never so easily understood and reasoned with!

[jns]

She reminded me that it was my duty as a friend to back her up, which made me feel like crap.

The purpose of a friend is not to back someone at every turn. It is to back them when they have done the right thing and still got bad results. It is to consul them on a better way when they seem to be going down the wrong path. It is to share life experiences so both grow. It is to share simple kindness. It is definitely not to back their bad behavior. If you back their bad behavior, I have to ask if you really care about them. I can see ignoring bad behavior while attempting to get them to increase their good behavior especially with the hope that the good behavior will squeeze out the bad behavior.

The problem is, those lines are never so clear in practice as they are in theory. For example, is simple resignation that relationships are not worth the effort "bad behavior?" I've only been able to come to the conclusions I have about her based on lengthy interaction and knowing what makes her tick. Meaning that in her case, I know that to withdraw is not the answer because she needs to live outside of herself, not inside. If the question was "do I smoke crack or not?" then yeah, it would be an easy answer.

The real question about this is: "Do you want to accept her definition of friendship as your own?" If you accept her definition, and you have not backed her every move, then you are falling short of being a friend and so the feeling like crap is proper. If you don't accept her definition, you can work on getting her to understand that her definition is not yours and yours has plenty of backing for her, just not in every case. Alternately, you have several options such as to ignore the conflicting definitions - knowing you are in the right or to break the friendship due it not being based on common understanding. If you know you are in the right, why let her comments make you feel like crap?

Anyway I do have a question for you ladies. She seems to be very poorly affected by this lack of success with a guy she likes at work. Now, I was devastated once by a failed romance (my first real one, when I was 18 or so), so I know that can lay you low, but she's not had a romance with this guy. They're hardly even friends. She would just like it if they were more - apparently very, very keenly. Is it legit to get that bent out of shape in that situation? I had an unrequited love drama in my younger years too, but it was with a guy I was actually almost involved with, and it went on for a long time during which I came to know the guy very well. That was difficult, but does the same thing potentially apply with someone who's closer to being a stranger? She seems genuinely devastated by it all - and "it all" is just that nothing has happened. There's been no outright rejection or cruelty or anything like that.

I think most of us have had in mind a relationship we wish we had had. The classic unrequited love. Something that we were not bold enough to attempt for the reason that we did not want to be shot down, because being shot down would be painful and it would give finality to our fantasy. A situation where not knowing was better than having it destroyed. In her case, she seems to be so adverse to the possibility of having a bad result, she is not even trying to start a friendly conversation which could lead further.

Well she has (some) conversations. She seems to be more inhibited by the fact that she feels it's this guy's duty to make a move on her, tho I do think she's also afraid to do it herself and not just a traditional values girl. Believe me, I've said many times "just ask him out for coffee" and tried to disempower a no answer ("the worst thing that can happen is he says no ....and so what?" etc.).

Guys have had to overcome being shot down from time immorial. It is not fun. Those who adapt the easiest are the ones who can smooth talk their way into anything. Is it fair? Definitely not. However, it is the way things are. To those women who are learing these lessons, I say welcome. You might want to delve into her reasons for not asking a bit deeper. Make it about what she is feeling.

The ultimate answer to inaction is action and acceptance of the results.

Again, so much easier said than done. If she was squared away and secure and rational enough to be swayed by regular old logic, I wouldn't be here posting about this. Also jns - you know us women are never so easily understood and reasoned with!

Shifting from inaction to action is never easy if you have doubts. I'm sorry if I gave the impression it was. For me, learning to make sales door to door was terrifying. Learning to teach a class was terrifying. Cold approaching a girl that I think is very beautiful to get in a conversation with is still terrifying. But, if my job needs me to do something or I really want something to move forward, I have to bottle up that terror and do my best. The first two I mastered. The third is still a work in progress. Get some friends to role play with her so she becomes more confident. Have her learn to think quick on her feet. Have her learn which subjects are easier to start a conversation about. Have her learn to deal with adversity during role playing.

[atskitty2]

I am not sure I've stated that I think you wouldn't be a good friend if you felt you could help and yet, didn't try. So no, I think you shouldn't be feeling crappy for speaking up.

I think Jen, that she's just not going to get it until she gets it. Some people are just negative. Some women find their worth in their relationship. Some women fixate on a relationship, whether real or not.
She seems to have low self esteem and be wrapped up in the latest potential love interest.

I would be inclined to either have another tough discussion and give specific examples of what you observed over the years. Make sure it's clear that you come from a place of concern for her. I would imagine that you've been straight-forward with her so, maybe one more try.
Or, just drop it and try to ignore it or change the subject.
Or, call it a day and end it. That's probably what I'd choose at this point. Seems she is content with her own state of being. She won't change until she sees the benefit of it, and its unlikely she will see it thru your talking to her.
You've opened a can of worms, and if the friendship continues it's likely to stink for awhile

I don't feel I'm being very helpful, but I guess I just feel there's not that many choices...and we all know you can't just change someone.
I don't feel I have a good sense on what's really going on with her, WHY shes this way. Sorry. I'm not much help.

[atskitty2]

To address your specific question about the unrequited love...I think its just a symptom of her unhealthy attitude toward men...no I don't think its "normal". I don't think its healthy. I'm just not sure what the root of her issues are...

[jen1447]

Actually it is very helpful kitty, thanks. I'm not really looking for straight up answers! anyway, just to bounce ideas back and forth (it's how we roll lol), so your input has helped me to run thru the process.

With that in mind, I did have another discussion with her two nights ago as well, where she indicated she was in a better frame of mind and was more open to considering things. She was, but it got us only about half way there and she wouldn't give in the whole way. We left it up in the air again and then she messaged me last night and said she finally gave in, meaning she would do what I asked and not willingly go into the doom and gloom stuff. I know her well enough to know that when she says that it's not just lip service - after all, if she wanted to try to bluff me she could have said "sure np" right from the get go but she was honest and said she couldn't. Anyway that doesn't mean it will last for certain or that things are instantly all better, but it's a start. Hopefully this'll be something of a turning point for her.

So thanks ladies, you've all been great.