[Jasmine_79]

Mr. Wrong,

All I can say first is wow. I did not read all the posts but tried at least to read yours.

I have a question, how much do you know about her past? You said she had several sexual relationships and you abstained. Kudos to you!!

I am torn when reading these. One if she is not giving you sex or meeting your needs she must understand that she is pushing you toward masturbation and the porn is something that "helps you get off faster". I used to really hate strip clubs and such when I was younger, maybe I think it was because I was not 100% comfortable with my sexuality. You mentioned that in counseling sessions she like to point out the mistakes you have made. Can you clarify on what mistakes you have made. Is she referring to your porn use. Now I know this wouldn't work but if the kids were away maybe you should turn on a porn (or prepare it) put her in a position in which she can only see the T.V. Maybe start by kissing her neck and taking off her clothes, and just pay attention to her, making sure to be attentive to her. Maybe turn it on and again let her watch while you do the work. She may freak out or she may just let you continue. If you show her that she is really what you want, that the porn is not what you are interested in she may come around. I would NEVER watch porn when I was younger, but basically I have come around, and sometimes, I will turn it on before he gets out of the shower and it adds excitement. I think that she is stuck on the fact that you want the porn stars.

Also, going to a Christian counselor is a mistake. Given the nature of the issues you should seek counseling from someone that is not going to automatically pass judgment before hand. Lets face it, Im Catholic and I am not supposed to watch that.

Another thing I felt was weird is that she had the "lists" and even from ex's -- a little scary. Seems like she had it all planned out before you were together, which is not exactly honest. She could have let you know she wanted to start a family right away. I honestly think that you have valid reasons to feel the way you do.

I know there has to be a way to overcome the porn issue. Have you ever bought books? For instance, they sell books for couples to explore their sexuality together....a good one is, "the multi-orgasmic couple." This one in particular begins with a chapter for you and one for her, and guides you to exploring your selves. Basically though the self-exploration we learn what pleases us so that we can accept pleasure from our partners. There are several others definitely worth looking into. Also, another suggestion is that she is obviously for some reason not happy with her self, her body or what ever it is. Maybe buy her some sexy lingerie as a gift...some perfume, also when is the last time you got a babysitter to just go on a date together. Try it.

I think for you both to be happy in the long run that really letting her know exactly how you feel, maybe she will see things from your perspective. She must look at it from a different point of view, sorry to say that is not going to happen at the Christian counselor.

Hope that my insight helps, didn't mean to get too graphic. Hope my insight helps you.

[Hopeless Dork]

Now I know this wouldn't work but if the kids were away maybe you should turn on a porn (or prepare it) put her in a position in which she can only see the T.V. Maybe start by kissing her neck and taking off her clothes, and just pay attention to her, making sure to be attentive to her. Maybe turn it on and again let her watch while you do the work. She may freak out or she may just let you continue. If you show her that she is really what you want, that the porn is not what you are interested in she may come around. I would NEVER watch porn when I was younger, but basically I have come around, and sometimes, I will turn it on before he gets out of the shower and it adds excitement. I think that she is stuck on the fact that you want the porn stars.

I think if his wife has a problem with his porn watching habits... the LAST thing he should is put some on, face her in front of the tv and proceed to try to make love to her. I would be BEYOND insulted and I'm someone that doesn't mind watching porn with my guy sometimes... but theres a time and place... and if I feel he's been ignoring me for porn... the last thing he could do to make that up to me is put it on for our sex. If she is stuck on the fact he wants porn stars... I don't think she would want to have him inniciate sex incorperating them.

I don't think there is anything wrong with him watching porn and masturbating if she won't have sex with him. Its completely unfair for one partner to decide they don't want orgasms and no one else in the house can have them either.

But I think if his ultimate goal is trying to get her interested in sex with him... leading with porn, something that upsets her so much... will not help him progress... but could serve to push her even further away.

[mrwrong]

Just had quite the telling discussion. It actually is not any different than a few discussions we've had in the past, but I guess I've tried to ignore the truth while searching desperately for hope.. I'll try to be brief.

I started by calling the counseling service to cancel next week's appointment (she has to attend PDO intro) , keep the following appointment and then cancel the recurring schedule (I'm not returning to that counselor after this last appointment). We start discussing why I don't want to go anymore. Essentially because when I meet with him by myself he seems to understand me, but when I ask him direct questions about his opinion of me/situation/advice he avoids saying it outright. Fair enough, I get it, he has to be careful not to me off. But, when she meets with him it all comes out, and last time the entire session was spent talking about me while I was down in the waiting room with the kids. Before he's said I'm a sex addict and then last time when alone with my wife said in so many words that by being depressed about our marriage I'm not being responsible to my family. I've definitely been irresponsible in the past with my bahavior, no question. However, I put food on the table for three, help with chores around the house, take my kids out for activities on the weekend, painted my daughter's room just last weekend and the other night, etc. I don't do anything but work for my family and I'm happy to do that. However, I'm not happy when my wife treats me like I don't exist. Yes, time is an issue, but priorities are the real issue. If days were 4 hours longer I'm 100% sure it wouldn't matter one bit.

The real issue is her messed up belief system. She believes that I, as a husband should be "fulfilled by Christ" and that as long as my happiness is at all contingent on her and not on being "fulfilled by Christ" that I will not be happy. This is why when we have discussions about setting aside more time in the day for each other and having sex more often she never follows through! She believes it isn't what I need and that it won't improve anything so she never intended to do anything different in the first place! She says if I were to remarry that I'd be miserable and depressed in the next marriage as well since I'd be dependent on my spouse for my happiness. I totally understand the "ups and downs" aspect of marriage, but if my happiness is supposed to be completely independent of my spouse then why would I get married other than to use my spouse for children, money and an empty friendship. I don't even want to have sex with her anymore, she just uses sex to control me because it is something I want, not because she loves me or wants me or it feels good or even to make me happy.

I find it difficult to see her at all as a sexual person, she's more like a robot that loves her kids. I've tried my best to ignore this and have always tried to make her feel sexy, but there is no point in trying anymore. She is what she is. I'd feel sorry for her except she never indicates in any way that she wishes she was any different. She's perfectly happy being someone who doesn't care about sex and doesn't care about her husband. Never once has she sought help, spent time pondering about it, openly discussed with me about it, stayed up at night thinking about it or crying or anything. I've tried talking with her about her past and the ways it has affected her to help her overcome guilt and insecurities to no avail. I asked her about masturbating when she was in her teens and she says she did and felt guilty about it. I told her that it was normal and the only reason she felt guilty about it was because her parents and friends *never* talked to her about it or said it was ok. The only reason she felt guilty was because the way she was raised it was taboo, (just like the way I was raised) and thanks to the estrangement of the legalistic church influences, those feelings were only solidified over the years. I asked her if she was single and masturbated now if she'd still feel guilty and she says she would! I tried telling her that it was all normal but she was hardly listening to me, acting like the discussion was a waste of time and while I was talking she was searching for some furniture for the kid's rooms on craigslist and browsing around on facebook.

Tonight, if the kids were in bed and we had time and I flat-out asked her "Can we have sex?" she'd probably consent, but she won't even let me see her step out of the shower or change her clothes and she'd certainly never initiate or offer to have sex so what's the point? If it's meaningless to her then it is meaningless to me and it has always been meaningless and will always be meaningless. Our house is 1400 sq ft, the kids cribs are no more than 20 ft away from our bed but if we're having sex the baby monitors are both on and turned up loud enough to almost her them breathing and if they make a single peep she stops and listens as if they were suffocating! We never have grandparents watch the children overnight and she'd rather cuddle in bed with our daughter any day. When we lay down for the night my touching her sensually is just an annoyance and she never reciprocates. I try to brush it off because if I show any feelings she just pretends like she doesn't know why I'm upset and just asks "What's wrong with you?" like I have no reason to be hurt or depressed. Sex has just become a sore subject and she seems to prefer it that way. To her it is nothing more than a necessary evil and I feel like that's what I am to her, a necessary evil to fulfill her desires to be a stay-at-home mom. Well that's fine, I'll wait out my three-month "purification period" so she can't call me a sex addict in front of the judge, then wait out the one-year waiting period so she can't call me a cheater, then we can both move on with our lives and I'll just disprove her theory that I can't be a happily married man with the next woman. My only regrets will be the effect it has on the kids and our relationships with them, but I know there is no way I can live this way for the next 16 years without the effects on them being far worse than the effects of an amicable divorce.

Feel free to disagree, but that's where I stand.

[WildChild]

I hope you get a pagan judge.
Not to make light of this attitude but you are right there isn't much you can do - except - check out some of the christian materials on sexual relations. There is some that encourages a loving, sex positive attitude. I know this because I know some hard core christians who are into it. I know a couple who are absolute pillars of their evangelical church who have "naked Tuesday". The kids are in school, they own their own business and they spend the day naked together.

Whether she will be open to this is hard to say but if you are giving at least 3 more months why not give it a try?

[Hopeless Dork]

So... she expects that you should be... a priest. Essentially, thats what she wants. You didn't choose the celibate priesthood, you chose marriage. Marriage does not include celebacy, it includes intimacy, love, affection, respect, understanding, being giving, supportive, and making sacrafices. It sounds like you are the only one making any sacrafices...

You are not a sex addict for wanting to make love to your WIFE. You are not a sex addict for wanting to masturbate when your wife won't have sex with you. You are a sexual person, we all are... well... apparently not all.

She tells you your next relationship, should you have one, would be unhappy. I don't believe that... because I don't think you will enter into another relationship with someone that doesn't see affecion as an important part of a relationship. She, on the otherhand, will be hard pressed to find someone that wants to do all the things a husband does, and get all the affection of a roomate.

Your kids happiness is contingent on your happiness. If you are a miserable man, it will be hard to be the loving father they deserve. Hopefully your wife can come to the understanding that intimacy, affection, feeling special and wanted by your wife are things any normal man would want from a woman he is married to. That you can both love God, and find happiness through him, while still showing love to each other in both emotional and physical ways.

Is there anyway you guys can see a counselor that is more neutral? It sounds like the one you have is not out to save your marriage. One thats out to save your marriage would be more focused on compromise, on you giving in a little and her giving in a little to meet an arrangement thats livable to the both of you... your current counselor is all about laying blame on you for wanting out of your marriage what most people expect out of their marriage... and not trying to find any way for you two to compromise.

I hope you guys can turn this around, I don't think all hope is lost... I think you should pick a new counselor, as the one you have is not guiding you guys towards healing and moving forward.

[rcoreyus]

You are not compatible with her. You expect completely different things out of marriage and life, and honestly I don't think any compromise is likely. Blame isn't important but for what it is worth, she is in the extreme minority - love, happiness, and sex are why most people get married.

I don't think you are doing your children a favor by bringing them up in an unhappy household. You are making yourself miserable. Your misery will make your wife miserable - at least if she has any human compassion.

I'm sorry, but I think you need out - I think everyone in this tragedy will be better off. What she is asking for is not a marriage.

This is not a "Christian" issue. There are many (the great majority) of Christians that believe that it is good and normal for a husband and wife to enjoy intimacy together. The great majority of Christians only frown on sex outside of marriage, not within it.

[mrwrong]

... but you are right there isn't much you can do - except - check out some of the christian materials on sexual relations. There is some that encourages a loving, sex positive attitude.

I'm open to trying that, it is probably the only chance I've got. I'm not trying to be negative here, but here are the obstacles I see:
1. We probably already have some of these books on our shelves and she's probably read them. How that is received by her mind is something else entirely, she is very much one who hears what she wants to hear or else digests enough only so she can counter-attack.
2. Reading books takes time. She's already got several books in her queue regarding parenting methods, vaccines, children's sleep problems, etc..
3. It may already be too late. I have a hard time lately believing a word she says or that her motives aren't to simply pacify me for the sake of the kids.

Case in point: The "Attachment Parenting Book" by Dr. Sears is one she takes to heart, all except the last chapter. To sum up attachment parenting it is "do everything you possibly can to keep your children happy". It is very intensive. However, the last chapter says almost verbatim "Q: What if my husband says he wants his wife back? A: You give him his wife back. The one thing kids want most is happy parents." Somehow she completely missed that part.

[Olympia]

Case in point: The "Attachment Parenting Book" by Dr. Sears is one she takes to heart, all except the last chapter. To sum up attachment parenting it is "do everything you possibly can to keep your children happy". It is very intensive. However, the last chapter says almost verbatim "Q: What if my husband says he wants his wife back? A: You give him his wife back. The one thing kids want most is happy parents." Somehow she completely missed that part.

It seems to me..
If she is doing everything to keep your children happy.... She is missing a primary component to that..
Children are VERY perceptive..They see and know something is wrong, when MOM and DAD are not getting along! As well as base much of the relationships they will have upon what they have witnessed at home! Please do not misunderstand me.. I am in no way a perfect parent, (if there is such a thing!) but they know and learn from us!

[rhiannon34]

One thing I keep thinking, is if your wife feels you need to work on yourself spiritually, and has a christian therapist, then what about the verse of the bible that says she shoud never deny you sex? 1 Corinthians 7:3-5, or how about the verse of the bible that says it is not the wives place to push her husband to be spiritual. 1 Corinthians 7: 1-16. This all sounds very one sided, and controlling.

[Allie602]

Mr Right - it never good to give up too soon in a marriage especially when there are children but I really cannot see how you can stay in this.

Religious belief aside, I believe there are ample passages in the bible that support sex sexual satisfaction between husband and wife. I am not making small of her belief system but the appeal of her beliefs may be that she has done things in the past that she is ashamed of and she is projecting them on to you. I believe there is also a passage to the effect that God admonishes his followers to leave all judgement to him, probably because one person is no less sinful that another.

At any rate, make sure to stay very close to your children they will need you. Expect to have to remain very strong and resolute in what ever you do, and gather as much support as you need and then some. You are not crazy, or wrong but your situation has elements of extreme dysfunction. It is almost as if you are living in a cult and you will only find yourself when you escape and get debriefed.