[Roland1919]

Very good points and helpful info WC. I do understand what you are saying and I don't have any intentions of pushing this issue with my wife any more. Recently I have been spending a lot more time making sure she is getting all the love and reassurances she needs. It has pened up our relationship immensely. My game plan on this topic is to continue to do all the little things and hopefully one day this will happen on its own.

Allie, I am sorry if my comments seemed biting. It is easy to misunderstand things on message boards. To speak to your last post, I think it may be some cause and affect. It is very hard to open up to someone when you have been burned before, but if you don't you can't have the type of relationship you seek (that everyone seeks). My wife and I were recently falling into a rut of not sharing our feelings with each other. We finally had a big blow out and it all came out and we are probalby in the best place we have ever been in our relationship now. But it did not happen without us talking. Talking can be hard sometimes and it is very hard to share feelings that you know will make your partner mad, but if you have the feelings and they are bothering you the only way to mend the relationship is through dialog. I think it is also important that you stop thinking of men with this amount of resentment. I saw in another post where you wrote that you don't give BJs because of a number of reasons, but you can only have an orgasm through oral sex. Don't you see the issue here?
I am afraid you are going to let past experiences ruin new experiences for you. I can tell you if I was in a relationship with a women who insisted that I give oral sex to her but was unwilling to do it for me, I would not feel very trusting of that person and the relationship would almost certainly not last long. If you have specific issues with your partner I would be glad to lend my input.

[Allie602]

I know men are people that is why I am trying to communicate and work out some of my issues. There are many sad instances of women trashing men in general due to bad experiences with one man. I have, fortunately, been able to take my experiences in stride and I am trying to maintain the optimism I had when I first noticed boys. I have never tried anything sexually that I am ashamed of just some things that don't appeal to my taste.

I have had encounters with men in which they were clearly not interested in my person just the sex they could get from me, it never happened. I am certain that they had feelings and so did I. However, from those unpleasant encounters, I developed a sense of being guided by a healthy respect for my intuition and feelings. What I do matters more to me than what someone else feels.

That is my advice to all women, it is not against men but it is protection against predatory men and even predatory attitudes that men may retain in long-term relationships that they may not even recognize. Predation means satisfying one's hunger by devouring another being, the one being devoured cannot be seen to have feeling or they would not seem like food.

About men's feeling towards women and sexual intimacy. i think men as a group make it clear to woman that their attitude towards sexual relations with woman. They view sex as completely separate from their emotions, it is a physical release for them and that they will do anything to meet their need, they can even have sex with someone they hate, just because they have sex with you it does not mean they are emotionally invested. They can cheat and feel noting for the other woman and still love their wives and children.

These are things that men themselves say. It gives the impression that they can easily make themselves impervious to the pain of woman where sex is concerned. They say they feel emotional and rejected if their long term partner does not go along with whatever they want sexually but can or turn them off any feelings and cheat to get whatever they want outside of the marriage.

Men appear to have emotions but as they describe them, the can turn them on or off where woman are concerned. The emotions seem to center around their sexual needs hence the ability to coerce and badger their partners to do things that are uncomfortable even painful for their sexual pleasure. Men are people but they seem to find it easier to exploit and take advantage if they get an opening. This is the image that men project. Women are very giving and will give to an exploitive man thinking that the man has the same empathy as she. It takes one bad experience with a man to change the way women relate to men - we become guarded and alert for the signs of exploitation even in a man who says he loves because he can so easily turn that love off when he wants something sexually.

This may explain why woman may appear to think men have no feelings. It hard to sort out the real picture of men from the one that they present in society in general.

[Allie602]

I think it is wonderful what you are doing with your wife so few couples come from a bad place to re-establish a solid relationship. As for her healing I would say a lot of patients and love. Don't think too far ahead just let it happen I think she will try anything you want as long as she feels safe with you and that it is all about the two of you. What you are doing is making her feel safe she knows that you care about her and want her to be happy. She will want to get out of her comfort zone to please you since she sees you going the distance to please her.

Men sometimes ask why they have to work so hard to keep the sex going in a long-term relationship - I think it is because of the mixed messages woman are bombarded with in this society about her sexuality. Also most woman have strong sexual desire but the desire to express them depends on the partner having his emotional switch on. Most woman are not sure when a man has turned off his emotions towards her and needs constant reassurance that they are stil there.

You mentioned my aversion to bj but let me tell you why - I have dated more than one man who expected it and a few who tried to push my head down and they didn't even know me yet!! They wanted a bj not me and any man who requires a bj for a relationship is saying to a woman his pleasure is so important that he bases his selection on who will service him the best. By being up front about my preferences, I eliminated a population of men from my dating pool who has already decided on how he wants his penis serviced which has nothing to do with the person they find or mutual pleasure. I don't think I am missing out on anything.

Not all woman are as honest as I am. Men who base their selection of a long -term partner based upon her willingness to give him a bj are nuts. To select his marriage partner on the basis of her bj enthusiasm, abilities and willingness to swallow is swayed by the immense pleasure he gets; she essentially gets him addicted. She may hate doing them, but since he told her up front what she need to do to get him, she does it to get what she wants. But once the conditions for the arrangement has been accomplished, he got the bj and she got a wedding and baby, whose to say if they will stop.

I find bj erotic and may eventually do them on a man after I get to know him and he gets to know me. I'll do it because if I love him he will be the type of man that I would want to please and make happy. What I do sexually is based on how I feel about the person I am with. As the relationship develops, my feelings add desires deepen and provides the added incentive to engage in things that I know he would enjoy and would make him very happy. First comes the connection and development of love with a person and then the adventures begin because each person has developed the investment to make the other happy. Having a requirement short circuits that process but it's common, and it is equally common that bj stop after the wedding.

[Roland1919]

You are absolutely correct, Allie, pushing a womens head down there is uncool. Exeperienced men know better than to try this. It sounds like maybe you are younger and these experiences have been with young men, say between 17-23? If I am correct on this I would suggest some of your experiences are fairly normal experiences for this age group and most of these men will not be this way when they are 28 and have learned some manners. I guess my word of caution would be that yes there are predatory men out there, but they are very much the minority. Don't assume this behavior is common with mature men because I don't believe it is.

[stressed]

An interesting thread to read. A few points, both to the OP and Allie:

Allie: You make a very good point about waiting to give oral to men, because you want them to appreciate and value you for who you are and not by how good you are at oral. You only do it to men you love and never before that. You say that physical pleasure must come after emotional connection. I agree with all this and I am also the same. However, in a previous post you claim that you do not see yourself being in a relationship where the man won't be able to give you an orgasm by oral. This rather contradicts your latest post, as on the one hand you first demand emotional connection from men before you do what they physically want you to, but on the other hand you put your physical needs first when it comes to receiving. Just wanted to mention this contradiction, nothing personal.

OP: I'm under the impression that the more she's been against this fantasy of yours the more you've been fantasizing about it. Also, you first claim to have a great sex life but the more you kept writing the more frustrated you seemed to be about it. My views about your wife changed from initially offering you a "great sex life" to being very shy and reserved about talking about sex with you. However, it is very positive to see that you can improve your relationship through dialogue, so you probably don't need further advice on the subject.

And on a personal note, both my fiance and I have mentioned things we have done with an ex that we don't want to do again (he won't have sex on my period, I'm not keen on anal sex). As it has been mentioned before, it is unfair not wanting to try something again just because of a past experience. The difference is that I have agreed to try my "not favourite" thing at least twice (but without success), yet he never wants to try his with me. He also hints from time to time that we should try mine, or jokes about me having it done in the past, yet when I suggest his he claims "it's different". The main reasons it bothers me are that my ex'es never had a problem with sex during my period, I don't have the periods his ex had, and sex is already infrequent enough to be even more limited by periods. So, even though I wouldn't terribly mind going for anal, the fact he has his own things he won't try makes me want to avoid it all together even more. I don't see why one should try everything and the other just a half.

Women are more easily convinced to try something they don't want to for their man because they were raised with this sense of having to please their man, otherwise he's bound to find this pleasure with somebody else. Certain men also seem to have it more difficult to accept that their partner does not want to do something she has done with somebody else, whether she liked it or not.

[WildChild]

Good point Stressed, I have also experienced this one sidedness - more than once.

[Hopeless Dork]

Men who base their selection of a long -term partner based upon her willingness to give him a bj are nuts.

You say that... but in another post mention how you will NOT have a relationship with a man that doesn't orally service you. I am not attacking the contradiction in views, please don't think that. I am just trying to understand the thought process behind it?

I also can't help but to feel offended when you say you are more honest than most women in admitting your distaste (no pun intended) for oral ... as if to imply the women that enjoy it are not being honest.

I assure you I have nothing to gain by spouting off here how much I enjoy to both pleasure and be pleasured by my boyfriend. Its just something I honestly enjoy.

I don't think there is anything wrong with you not liking certain acts... and I don't think the dislike of certain acts should pose problems in a relationship based on love -- however, the attitude about it the whole , you'll do whatever i want but don't you dare ask me to do what you want seem's so onesided that I have a hard time understanding how intimacy could grow under such conditions.

I think of how this man is hurt about not getting this specific fantasy fullfilled is less about her just not wanting to do it and more about trying to get past the knowledge that she indulged some other man in the past, of her own free will.... nothing traumatic, and has decided its not for her for whatever reason and will not entertain the idea with her husband.

No one should be pressured to doing something they don't want to do as there are SO many alternative ways to pleasure each other than checking a few "no, not happening" boxes shouldn't greatly adversely affect a couples sex life.

But its all in the attitude about it, respecting each other, compromises and trying to base what you do in your current relationship on the merit of the current relationship and not making someone else pay for jerky exes.

Not liking to give oral is one thing. Not liking to give it to a loving partner because a couple guys in the past didn't appreciate it is about as fair as a man saying he's NEVER going to open up the door for you because his last gf didn't say thank you, thats it... never again! Never going to send you flowers , because he's sent 2 exes flowers and they both ended up being jerks so ... forget it, no flowers for you.

We all base our feelings on our experiences but I think its important to also re-evaulate our stances on things from time to time and decide to look at the person we are with as an individual without shadows from relationships past clouding the view.

[stressed]

*update to my last post here* A few hours after I posted this he came home from work saying he wanted to have sex with me despite me being on my period and that we can find a way etc.
This is why I believe in the power of thought more than coincidence (call me silly, but this is not the firs time it happens to me and he does not read my posts here, doesn't even know I have an account here)...
Whether it will happen or not time will tell, but I was just SO surprised he said this for the first time after 4 years, right after I posted about it here. Spooky.

[Allie602]

You say that... but in another post mention how you will NOT have a relationship with a man that doesn't orally service you. I am not attacking the contradiction in views, please don't think that. I am just trying to understand the thought process behind it?

I also can't help but to feel offended when you say you are more honest than most women in admitting your distaste (no pun intended) for oral ... as if to imply the women that enjoy it are not being honest.

I assure you I have nothing to gain by spouting off here how much I enjoy to both pleasure and be pleasured by my boyfriend. Its just something I honestly enjoy.

I don't think there is anything wrong with you not liking certain acts... and I don't think the dislike of certain acts should pose problems in a relationship based on love -- however, the attitude about it the whole , you'll do whatever i want but don't you dare ask me to do what you want seem's so onesided that I have a hard time understanding how intimacy could grow under such conditions.

I think of how this man is hurt about not getting this specific fantasy fullfilled is less about her just not wanting to do it and more about trying to get past the knowledge that she indulged some other man in the past, of her own free will.... nothing traumatic, and has decided its not for her for whatever reason and will not entertain the idea with her husband.

No one should be pressured to doing something they don't want to do as there are SO many alternative ways to pleasure each other than checking a few "no, not happening" boxes shouldn't greatly adversely affect a couples sex life.

But its all in the attitude about it, respecting each other, compromises and trying to base what you do in your current relationship on the merit of the current relationship and not making someone else pay for jerky exes.

Not liking to give oral is one thing. Not liking to give it to a loving partner because a couple guys in the past didn't appreciate it is about as fair as a man saying he's NEVER going to open up the door for you because his last gf didn't say thank you, thats it... never again! Never going to send you flowers , because he's sent 2 exes flowers and they both ended up being jerks so ... forget it, no flowers for you.

We all base our feelings on our experiences but I think its important to also re-evaulate our stances on things from time to time and decide to look at the person we are with as an individual without shadows from relationships past clouding the view.

No, I not implying women who like bj's are being dishonest, I would say they are prized at lest I hope they greatly appreciated. What I ment was that I have know women who say they love it to a guy to keep the relationship but they really don't. It is more common than you think. Don't think I hang out with a bunch of shoddy women, these women are not friends. So, they have every intension of not doing them as soon as they can secure a ring. They don't say it like that but they make it clear they don't like but feel they have to do it for the time being.

Oral sex is the only way I can orgasm predictably, no orgasm ever vaginally, very infrequent if a man uses his fingers. So if I don't get oral sex, I get no orgasm. There may be another way that I can orgasm but I don't know about it, if there is then i'd go for it. I never say to a man "I only have relationships with men who will not service me". I just let the relationship unfold, like the one I am in now. He liked oral sex as it turns out so no problem. But if he didn't and he could get me there some other way as predictably as oral, that would be fine. I may have been hyperbolic when I said I'd kick a man out for no oral, I would end things for no orgasm. if I didn't have orgasms I would not be happy and would bid him goodbye to find someone more compatible. So you see no kicking would be involved.

i don't understand why the fact that I orgasm with oral most predictably and that it is the only way I can is such a sticking point. I think I should have some reasonable expectations of sexual satisfaction in a committed relationship an d so should he. Does the fact that I don't give a man a bj relegate me to relationships in which I need forgo having orgasms because I will not reciprocate? Are women who dislike bj punished. That's rather harsh don't you think? So far, oral sex is the only way to get be there and I we have vaginal sex to satisfy him.

Do you mean that the fact that he does not actually orgasm while giving me oral sex is the problem? It is not enough that he has vaginal sex to get an orgasm. How would you handle it if you were me? He gets satisfied and so do I. Where is the problem?

Do you mean women are required to give men bj in relationship now, is addition to vaginal sex to keep them happy and not cheating? Sounds terrible for woman, we have to do things so a man won't cheat. That may be a problem, the thought that I am giving a man a bj so he won't cheat makes me want to vomit. Is there a requirement for frequency? Is it on demand, because if you give them too infrequently to keep him happy he will cheat. How long should they last so he doesn't cheat, 20 min? 30 min maybe. How about swallowing, its also required by most men do you have to do that so he won't cheat? Men like coming on women's faces these days if he says he will cheat do you have to let him do that too (what will those porn producers come up with next)!!

Maybe I got it wrong Is this how it goes - men and women are required to trade exact same types of sex acts - oral for oral, how would it work if anal was a requirement, he get anal sex with me and I give him anal in return. What would happen if I could not orgasm with him giving me anal sex? The awesome pleasure of orgasms don't matter anymore? The specific sex acts are now the currency of sexual fidelity and happiness. This is depressing I'm going to have a drink and go to bed.

I actually find bj very erotic and fantasize about giving them. So no is not forever just until I find the right guy. I would not continue to date a man who seemed interested in the type of sex he could get from me before even knowing if he liked me and I him. If he is asked about the bj when he hardly knows me, then, I would assume he was looking for someone to give him bj's. I would imagine that if he had an interest in finding someone for a relationship, he would wait to see if things were even going in that direction then discuss what we like and if no bj was a deal breaker for him then I would expect him to kick me to the curb.

[jns]

Way to go, stressed. Maybe he has an account or just looks through the threads here. You will know he has really turned the corner if he gives you enthusiastic oral.