[jns]

Could you highlight exactly what was wrong with my comment? Who could have been offended by me pointing out what religious people believe?

I agree with Little.

Your comments were offensive to me, because even though there are people that believe that science is built on facts and not theories, anybody who has studied science deeply knows that is not the case. This is why science, after considerable debate and experimentation, concluded that Newtonian physics was not quite right and Einstein's theories had to be adopted. Science is not to be adopted dogmatically. Einstein was personally religious AFAIK.

The painting of many, if not all religious traditions with a broad brush that really covers only your interpretation of only a segment of religious beliefs is also offensive to me.

[Stillness]

Could you highlight exactly what was wrong with my comment? Who could have been offended by me pointing out what religious people believe?

I'm "religious" and it was a mischaracterization of my beliefs. I wasn't offended, but I'm difficult to offend. I found it funny, but you didn't mean it to be. It seems that you meant to dismiss everybody that doesn't view things your way. It was like, "Pfft, they're just stupid." It's not conducive to respectful conversation and it's abrasive. Abrasive is not good on a forum where people are looking for help and a safe place to share ideas.

[Little]

TVLover,
JNS and Stillness have effectively explained why your comments were inappropriate. This forum doesn't operate like some other ones you might be a part of - we don't allow members to just rip into one another, insult them on a personal level, or be dismissive. While threads can get pretty heated, it's important that we treat other posters with respect regardless of their beliefs. Your post boiled down to "People who believe XYZ are stupid, so they don't matter." That's just not how we roll here. Find a new way to roll or find a new place to roll.

Infant circumcision will stop being routine in the US when mothers and fathers decide that circumcision just isn't that important. When mothers stop letting fathers decide the fate of their sons' penises just because the father has a penis, and when fathers stop deciding the fate of their sons' penises based simply on how intact their own are. When parents decide whether to circumcise sometime BEFORE the doctor offers it. When people are making educated choices - even if that choice is indeed to circumcise - we will all be making better choices, regardless of the profits to be made by doctors or health insurance providers or pharmaceutical companies or anybody else.

Having conversations like these are important, though. If prospective parents don't know that circumcision isn't the only way, they can't seek out information on it, can't decide for themselves whether they want to go in that direction. My opinions about circumcision were formed during a conversation like this one on WH back in 2008.

As far as comparing RIC to FGM, I just don't understand why girls deserve intact genitalia more than boys. I can't respect the decision of a parent to let a doctor forcibly separate the foreskin from the glans, clamp the foreskin down, and cut it off of a newborn, often without effective pain management. Which is not to say that people I love and respect haven't made that decision. I just have to ignore the knowledge of them doing it because their kid's genitalia simply aren't my business and the decision they made was perfectly legal.

[DreamP346]

I can't respect the decision of a parent to let a doctor forcibly separate the foreskin from the glans, clamp the foreskin down, and cut it off of a newborn, often without effective pain management.

I find that most parents don't believe infants feel the same type of pain as adults. Also, there is this attitude of "I was circumsized and I turned out OK. I don't have emotional scares of the pain inflicted on me as an infant" attitude that many fathers have. Doctors also don't present the positives and negatives of circumcision and therefore most people believe there is nothing bad with it. That is why I always try to educate people on the truths of circumcision. I chose not to circumcise my son which was difficult for me husband as he is. Even as an educated man, it was still a difficult decision to let his son be different than himself.

[Stillness]

I can't respect the decision of a parent to let a doctor forcibly separate the foreskin from the glans, clamp the foreskin down, and cut it off of a newborn, often without effective pain management. Which is not to say that people I love and respect haven't made that decision. I just have to ignore the knowledge of them doing it because their kid's genitalia simply aren't my business and the decision they made was perfectly legal.

Even though we both know our views don't line up on a lot of stuff, they do 100% here. I mentioned that my dad got circumcised because of religious beliefs. What I didn't mention is that he views himself as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Jesus doesn't even require circumcision! He confided in me that he didn't realize that when he got the circumcision and that he regretted it because of the pain. I didn't ask him much more because my curiosity to know the differences between being intact and circumcised was overruled by my desire to know zero about my dad's penis at the time. I think now that I will ask him if the time is right. But, I'm sorta hesitant because I can't help but to wonder whether this realization of his came before or after he circumcised me. I would have no problem with it if God required it, but he doesn't and I really don't appreciate my stuff being cut.

[Little]

sp346 - I have run into the same kind of attitudes. None of the doctors I spoke to after delivery gave me any information about circumcision - they asked, I said no, we moved on. I was asked multiple times, and each time there was no pressure BUT also no information. I delivered at a very small hospital out in the boonies that despite its location seemed to "have it together," so I imagine my experience was not uncommon.
The people I love and respect who have made my child's genitals their business have given me some troubles over not having done it. As I'm (obviously since I am here discussing this) not shy about bodies, I won't have trouble telling my kid to wash ALL his folds. If mean boys in the locker room make fun of my boy for having an intact penis, we'll work through it (not to mention that the RIC rate is plummeting so I doubt he'll be the only one intact.) And while I think the idea of daddy and son having "matching penises" is a little strange, it would be really hard for him to match his daddy since daddy was born with a foreskin too short to cut! What was I supposed to do, ask the doc to cut HALF of it off? Though I can't say I was completely unhappy to shut down my family members' concerns about him matching daddy with the highly awkward sentence "He already WILL." Well, when folks practically beg me for TMI ... they get it.

[Hugo-B]

Hey TVlover, there are lots of people on WH who belong to the religions you are talking about there. We are not here to be mean to them, devalue their beliefs, or laugh at them. Those kinds of comments and the attitude they convey are completely inappropriate, and if you continue to make those kind of comments, you'll be banned. Think about the kindness you were showed when you described a VERY suspect situation, and try to give that kindness back even when you don't agree with people. Take a look at the FAQ and start operating on the Golden Rule - treat others as you'd like to be treated.

BB, the word on the street is that circumcision was developed in a legitimate bid for cleanliness in the ancient world where washing wasn't so easy to come by. It came into vogue in (secular) America in order to discourage masturbation. As a woman who's been with guys both intact and cut, I've gotta say I see the logic there ... rather than pumping some loose skin, you've got to slide your hand against it with some kind of lube. One of these things is significantly easier than the other!

Thanks Little, I only just noticed this post. Where did you glean this information? My friend who was circumcised at 17 said he sometimes has to masturabate wearing a condom due to discomfort. Very interesting indeed.

[Hugo-B]

sp346 - I have run into the same kind of attitudes. None of the doctors I spoke to after delivery gave me any information about circumcision - they asked, I said no, we moved on. I was asked multiple times, and each time there was no pressure BUT also no information. I delivered at a very small hospital out in the boonies that despite its location seemed to "have it together," so I imagine my experience was not uncommon.
The people I love and respect who have made my child's genitals their business have given me some troubles over not having done it. As I'm (obviously since I am here discussing this) not shy about bodies, I won't have trouble telling my kid to wash ALL his folds. If mean boys in the locker room make fun of my boy for having an intact penis, we'll work through it (not to mention that the RIC rate is plummeting so I doubt he'll be the only one intact.) And while I think the idea of daddy and son having "matching penises" is a little strange, it would be really hard for him to match his daddy since daddy was born with a foreskin too short to cut! What was I supposed to do, ask the doc to cut HALF of it off? Though I can't say I was completely unhappy to shut down my family members' concerns about him matching daddy with the highly awkward sentence "He already WILL." Well, when folks practically beg me for TMI ... they get it.

The men I have spoken to re circumcision all seem to be adamant that they want their sons to have a penis which matches their own. I can understand this.

[Little]

I couldn't point you in a particular direction, BB. Those tidbits of info are theoretic at best, and the product of generic google searches over the course of the last four years. Stillness mentioned that circumcised guys can have loose skin too - while I haven't exactly been pulling at the penile skin of all the guys I've gotten up close and personal with, it's been my experience that they use and require a sliding motion rather than a pumping one. Some of the sites I've looked at in my most recent search for info have suggested that many doctors are performing "partial" circumcisions, so maybe that could be responsible for the difference?

Stillness - I imagine the conversation with your father will be interesting, if a little awkward.

EDIT: BB, whyyyy does it matter that dad & son's penises match? I just don't get it.

[Hugo-B]

I don't know, it just seems to matter to them. I don't have any children, and conversely my father is circumcised and I'm not. if I ever have a son I wouldn't want him circumcised unless it was a medical necessity, but that's only me speaking for myself of course.

I was more just sharing information I have gleaned on my travels, the honest answer is 'I don't know for sure'; but, at a guess I would say we're most comfortable with what we know I suppose...